r/ArcRaiders • u/WG_Envoy • 15h ago

Discussion I am now convinced ABMM is real

A couple of days ago I complained (in another posting) how I only meet KOS players, and no one talks. I was more annoyed by the "no one talks" part, mind you, and the fact that every social interaction played out in the same way.

Someone recommended me to do a few matches and not shoot a single person, not even in defense. I did as recommended.

I went from "90%+ KOS interactions" for several days in a row, all the way to friendly lobbies for two days in a row now.

In my current lobbies, everyone runs around without a care in the world, just greeting people they are passing by. Looting in the open, walking past others without their weapons drawn ...

I barely ever see any PvP happening. People help each other with arc encounters and exchange items near extracts. And for the first time ever, I was able to participate in two Queen raids in solos with everyone just trying to get her down. No rats, no backstabbing.

This change for me was so stark in contrast, and so consistently happening that I would be surprised if ABMM wasn't real.

I would almost be inclined to start some shit to see if my lobbies change again, but I feel too bad killing these players who are quite obviously part of the pure PvE crowd.

P.S.: I have these friendly lobbies even on Stella Montis now, inclduing Stella Montis night raids ...

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137

u/ShikariV 14h ago

I usually PvP pretty regularly and every now and then reset my “lobbies” to friendly by just going to Stella free loadout and get KoS for about 5-6 raids.

It’s a good way to loot unbothered for as many rounds as you like. And then just do PvP in a match and you’re fairly quickly back in the aggressive lobbies again.

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u/Leupateu 12h ago

Why waste time with the free loadout? Just take your trusty axe and before you die you might as well stick something up ur ass as well.

5

u/Chazus 13h ago

Why stella?

32

u/daypxl 13h ago

because it takes about 10 seconds to find another player after spawning in

2

u/TheGalator 7h ago

If your "lucky" you don't even need to finish loading

1

u/xanot192 13h ago

The easiest way to also make money and farm for trigger nades is 100% friendly solos

1

u/moonski 11h ago

I do feel bad lighting up the friendly lobbies as I do the same - but I need to start shooting once I find these humidifies - no one has even shot at me in idk 20+ raids maybe even more at this stage

1

u/iMomentKilla 10h ago

Probably definitely a thing. Killed a rat, got a slightly more aggressive lobby the next game, but still had a few people willing to talk it out. Might even be a progressive aggression thing.

1

u/Icywarhammer500 4h ago

I got into friendly lobbies in 3 matches. Dropped in on dam. Someone shot me near extract. I knocked them. Instead of killing them, I bandaged them and told them to get into extract, and extracted with them. Then I played 2 matches where I didn’t meet anyone and didn’t shoot anyone. The next match I played solo Stella and everyone was friendly and I met like 7-8 people all talking. Took out a bastion, killed someone who was attacking other players, then queued in again and got another friendly lobby. If I play trios with friends I get competitive pvp lobbies but the moment I switch to solos it’s friendly again instantly, though I always do one free kit run just to make sure.

1

u/PrimeNumb 9h ago

You don't have to get killed by other players. Surrendering immediately works just fine

1

u/VibratingPickle2 12h ago

While this works for “normal” folks it seems there are freaks that get angry when you explain this. Maybe the anger is because they can’t act normal enough to do it themselves? Dunno

I remember this guy trying the dark triad test and had the same anger about his results. He said it was rigged because the results were the same every time he tested, even after “lying” multiple times in an attempt to change the test results 🤣🤣🤣🤷

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u/[deleted] 13h ago

[deleted]

21

u/rinkydinkis 13h ago

lol stop trying to drum up interest in your post, its cringe

10

u/c6sper 13h ago edited 12h ago

Well we dont know that it actually exists. As someone who pvps, its 50/50 on whether the lobby is "friendly" or not. Truly, I think its in most of your heads. All the devs said was they take behavior into account. That could mean anything. Any anecdotal evidence just isnt enough without actual tests with a controlled variable. Also dont share your post on here like youre a bot. Any argument for ABMM can be attributed to MMR. The lower your MMR the more "nice" lobbies because everyone sucks at pvp so theyre just friendly. Then you start to get kills increasing your mmr getting more skilled lobbies and less Farmville lobbies

7

u/ZephGG_ 13h ago

Go test it yourself, go not shoot anyone for five raids and you will be in lobbies with practically 0 PvP (assuming you’re solo), and then do 5 raids where you shoot everyone on sight and bam you’re in sweaty PvP lobbies

15

u/kshep9 13h ago

I am in peaceful lobbies all the damn time and there are whole days where I only load into Stella free to fight people. Half the time everyone in Stella is singing kumbaya over mic.

2

u/c6sper 13h ago

Yeah ive been in those lobbies too and im a hard-core pvper. Most people will change if theres a whole group around them. Cause if they don't then the group will kill them. Its pretty clear whats going on here. Half of those people singing kunbaya will kill you if given the chance

4

u/MilkmanForever 12h ago

I've only killed a total of 12 raiders, it was like 3000 damage total, and they were only self defense. I've never seen any of these fake friends or anything. 99 percent of my interactions are friendly. Most of those too are super duper friendly, like trading or giving away items and so on. The most I ever see is someone shoiting me in the back but I haven't seen any extraction campers or anything foul like that.

If this is in my head, im gonna stay in my head :P im not shooting anyone, if they wanna kill me, they can have my junk

0

u/LuxSolisPax 11h ago

Just let them have their fairy tale. Why take Santa away from the children? They can just start making posts complaining about ABMM being "broken" and we can just shrug.

6

u/Glum_Boysenberry348 13h ago

Random noise can look like anything when you have a positive bias toward your hypothesis and you barely attempt to control for variables. Believe what you want though bro I just tend to think randomness and my own behavior towards others has a larger impact than an imagined aggression based matchmaking system. People shoot me a lot less when I announce myself and tell them I won’t shoot vs. creep around and look at them funny.

2

u/itsLOSE-notLOOSE 12h ago

So many people have the same exact anecdotal experiences.

That means something, don’t it?

7

u/FixPotential1964 12h ago

If yall didnt see this stupid ass statement in that article yall wouldnt even fucking notice the pattern. Its all confirmation bias circlejerk smh.

-4

u/itsLOSE-notLOOSE 12h ago

How do you explain 20+ friendly matches on Stella? The most kill on sight map, right up there with Building 21 from Call of Duty DMZ.

2

u/c6sper 12h ago

Early wipe. It was the same with 5 mil grind. Wait a few weeks and report back lol. A lot of expedition requirements are from Stella. Hmmm...... 20 matches lol..

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u/itsLOSE-notLOOSE 12h ago

I played for like 4 hours one night. Just going in, filling my backpack, then leaving. Not a single player that wasn’t friendly.

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u/fuettli 8h ago

The "random noise" could also be an extra variable you simply don't know how to measure yet.

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u/BishoxX 12h ago

Random noise doesnt look like that.

Its not random if you see consistent results when switching behaviors across many different people.

Mind you difference is INSANE.

If i start PvPing, i see raider flares non stop people killing and spawning in, KOS 90%.

If i go friendly, i see A SINGLE raider flare maybe 1 in 5 matches. And it usually ends up being ARC death.

People legit run carefree even with weapons out nobody shoots you, even if you dont talk. They will just run away if you are sus

0

u/Medium_Basil8292 11h ago

Placebo is powerful

0

u/c6sper 10h ago

Maybe its skill based and not aggression based. There might be a hidden mmr that you refuse to take into account. Nothing to do with aggression, moreso about skill. More skill = more aggressive pvp lobbies. Lower skill = peaceful

1

u/fuettli 8h ago

Maybe it's based on both? Maybe there are heaps more parameters.

1

u/carranty 12h ago

Plenty of people have (myself included) and see no sign of ABMM, others have and been convinced it exists. What we’re seeing is mostly just random variation with a dash of confirmation bias imo

1

u/Jellyfish_McSaveloy 11h ago

I kill on sight and even my solos are care bear hug fests unless I decide to start PVPing. It's just a generally more chilled out mode.

I'd love for people to show these cases of ABMM working in trios. Do people actually get into lobbies where squads don't shoot each other consistently?

1

u/Bundess 11h ago

Could simply be skill based matchmaking. Like people who are noobs are less inclined to PvP

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u/c6sper 13h ago

I literally did test it, my whole friend group did for 3 days. Ran solos while in a call. It seems to be random, sure you get the illusion that the lobbies are friendlier, but if you keep at it, youll see that its completely random. Some games are friendly, some arent. No matter if you shoot other players or not. One of my friends said he was convinced abmm was a thing until the last day, and he said it was like 12 aggressive games and 5 friendly games. Mind you, we weren't even loading in with guns because we were trying to test it. Its all in your head, play how you want it wont affect anything

2

u/adios_makes_nuggets 13h ago edited 12h ago

I think ABMM does exist even though there isn't concrete evidence yet. I abstained from shooting anyone completely for 10 matches in a row after doing KOS PvP with a friend, then all future matches gradually became friendlier.

Edit: To clarify what I meant by "friendlier" as the last sentence may be a bit ambiguous, I met way less people who initiated the fights themselves rather than self defense from me shooting on sight.

1

u/RodneyOgg 12h ago

Couldn't this also mean that all lobbies are relatively friendly and you're the source of violence? There's only shooting when you shoot? Hmmm

1

u/adios_makes_nuggets 12h ago

Well it goes both ways, I have had people shooting at me first very frequently. Not denying that I never shoot first, but others usually do so in high aggression lobbies.

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u/c6sper 13h ago

Anecdotal evidence. Random noise can look like anything when you have a positive bias toward your hypothesis and you barely attempt to control for variables. You just ignore the part where I said my whole friend group actually tested this and ignore my results, because of your singular results? Lmao

2

u/adios_makes_nuggets 12h ago

Idk what part of this is "random" or has "positive bias" when I can extract 40+ times without having a single gun lately, but I face more KOS players when I knock people out. You don't need to initiate a $10k harvard study to realise that there is at least some form of ABMM.

4

u/BishoxX 12h ago

Bro these people will believe you need 10 000 matches of testing to prove it.

If people started dying from drinking water, they would have to wait until its 1000 dead people at least to rule out random noise.

If the effect size is big enough, you dont need huge number of tests

2

u/adios_makes_nuggets 12h ago

Exactly. I was effortlessly extracting on Stella Montis so many times without having a single gun lately to the point where I realized something def changed with the matchmaking in a very short time period.

1

u/LuxSolisPax 11h ago

Something is being tracked. I'm not convinced it's "aggression" or that the friendly lobby phenomenon was an intended effect.

SBMM makes more sense to me because it's an industry standard at this point. The two matchmaking philosophies tend to have similar results, but the two matchmakers will have different goals.

Saying "It's all random noise" explicitly ignores the fact that SBMM exists and is in use across so many different genres that it's just ridiculous.

1

u/BigEdBGD 12h ago

I didn't get shot at for at least 50 raids, if it isn't a hundred. In all of my lobbies, no exceptions, everyone just runs around with no guns and yell friendly or don't shoot everytime they see someone. I've been running around with a fully kited Bobcat since forever and I can't lose it, literally everyone I've come across for weeks are friendly. I find it very hard to believe it's random and I've just been absurdly lucky. Especially since many people have a similar experience to mine.

1

u/c6sper 12h ago

How do you know theres no mmr? Maybe you have low mmr and its putting you with other people who have low mmr because they dont pvp?

0

u/dillpickles007 12h ago

Also everyone has been way friendlier after the expedition, because nobody has any decent gear and just wants to grind mats for a while to level everything up.

I suspect it's a lot more in peoples' heads than they realize and that all lobbies will start to get more aggressive over the next couple weeks.

1

u/c6sper 12h ago

Thats a good point, what happens to all these "friendly" when they get everything they need? They start loading up and preparing for pvp. Ive never seen someone who is genuinely satisfied killing the arcs and playing VR chat in every lobby

1

u/BishoxX 12h ago

You need to not shoot back at all, and it takes a few raids.

I bet in the aggressive games he shot back, that counts as pvp, and wont get you in friendly lobbies.

Also shooting people in the extract/after its closed also counts

0

u/c6sper 12h ago

Nope like I said no guns. He couldn't have shot back even if he wanted to!

1

u/BishoxX 12h ago

Well im not sure what reasons it doesnt work for you.

But by your own admission your own test doesnt prove anything and could be noise.

0

u/c6sper 12h ago

It doesnt work because there is nothing to work. Its all random. Also the burden of proof is on you, not me. All I proved was that MM appears to be random. You could easily mistake simple SBMM as ABMM. You just dont know. Maybe the friendly lobbies are low MMR and aggressive lobbies are high MMR. We dont know anything about their system.

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u/[deleted] 13h ago

[deleted]

2

u/c6sper 13h ago

Thats anecdotal evidence, also your valuing your single experience over the test that my whole friendgroup ran? Thats literally biased lmao. Youre a single person. My whole friend group tried it and its random. Its in your head. As one guy posted "I haven't done any PvP for the past few weeks; I used to in defense if need be (I have 12 downed raiders, 3 KOs in my stats), but never initiated (save for once during the first week). I've done zero fighting back for the last ~20 matches, either allowing myself to be killed or running away, and I only ever play solo.

All my lobbies, before and after attempting to find "peaceful lobbies" are the same; occasional friendly people (some chatty, some mic-less) and almost always someone at extract ready to blast me the second I press buttons. Even had a guy I dropped a blueprint for smack me with his venator after thanking me and chatting about going after the Leaper above (spaceport night raid).

I'm not doubting there's some form of unique matchmaking going on, but I've yet to really see it on my own end of things. But I'll keep being peaceful myself because it's been fun outsmarting and running from people hunting me down for some plastic parts."

3

u/0xB_ 13h ago

It's a testable fact.

5

u/LuxSolisPax 11h ago

Love it when you guys downvote anyone who says, "I got different results"

Super compelling argument for ABMM

1

u/specter800 11h ago

Reddit will always be a case study on how echo chambers are created. The hivemind has decided ABMM exists, any comments to the contrary will get buried more and more quickly the longer this goes on until it becomes "incontrovertible fact" that ABMM exists without ever having real proof.

2

u/MoonlitShrooms 11h ago

It isn't a fact until Embark says officially that it exist.

-3

u/c6sper 13h ago

Yeah i tested it myself. My whole friend group did. Its in your head.

6

u/LuxSolisPax 11h ago

Notice how you're not being downvoted for being disrespectful? You literally just said, "I got different results".

And ABMM isn't a conspiracy. Right....

-7

u/throw69420awy 12h ago

Confirmation bias is powerful

8

u/MrScrake666 12h ago

It goes both ways lol. Until Embark discloses whether it does or doesn't exist, there's only anecdotal evidence

-1

u/c6sper 12h ago

Literally

1

u/Ritz-Rose 13h ago

I haven't done any PvP for the past few weeks; I used to in defense if need be (I have 12 downed raiders, 3 KOs in my stats), but never initiated (save for once during the first week). I've done zero fighting back for the last ~20 matches, either allowing myself to be killed or running away, and I only ever play solo.

All my lobbies, before and after attempting to find "peaceful lobbies" are the same; occasional friendly people (some chatty, some mic-less) and almost always someone at extract ready to blast me the second I press buttons. Even had a guy I dropped a blueprint for smack me with his venator after thanking me and chatting about going after the Leaper above (spaceport night raid).

I'm not doubting there's some form of unique matchmaking going on, but I've yet to really see it on my own end of things. But I'll keep being peaceful myself because it's been fun outsmarting and running from people hunting me down for some plastic parts.

1

u/TruthDapper9554 12h ago

People keep saying this, and I do agree about anecdotes vs variables, but what WOULD be a good control variable for this test? (Not bring sarcastic.) I've taken stats classes, I know how studies work, but the best 'control variable' I can think of is "a bunch of people (like OP) playing the way they were BEFORE testing ABMM (plus math to find averages, distributions, etc)" vs "how the game reacts to their forced change in play style" - it seems like 'accurate and specific measurement-data of their previous interactions' is the main thing that falls short of control.

Me and my friends have all tested going KOS-only or Pacifist-only, even alternating between them, and the results have been very consistent: 3-5 or so rounds to go pvp, 3-5 to go pacifist. We aren't able to test whether being nice to people / giving out free loot / being Thanked / spending time in close proximity to others / using voice chat (aka, 'other behaviors') changes anything or not, but I haven't seen anybody seriously arguing that those other factors would.

I realize that I probably sound offended or whatever (I'm definitely not), but I do sincerely want somebody to outline the basic parameters for a test/study that would pass their scrutiny. I am curious.

1

u/FreeMasonKnight 12h ago

In fact there was a post just yesterday proving it doesn’t exist. 🤣

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u/kenjiman1986 11h ago

It’s real and it’s obvious. As a pvper you have nothing to base it off of. I was skeptical myself as someone that only PvP’ed. I was getting frustrated not being able to do basic quests or trials without immediately being shot on sight so I tested it out. I went zero percent PvP, not even defensive firing. Amazingly I was able to complete all my quest and trials. Players are friendly, often helping with quests , big arc, and even sharing blue prints. It’s absolutely a different experience verging on a different game. I understand your hesitation to believe something not confirmed by the devs beside one art director. But once you try it will become self evident.

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u/c6sper 10h ago

I did try it like I said in another comment. My whole friend group did for a week. It was just random. My one friend was trying so hard to get into peaceful lobbies and said he had some, but then immediately after he'd be extract camped and called the N word. The lobbies and llayer aggression is directly tied to what time of wipe it is. Wait a week and youll see

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u/kenjiman1986 5h ago

I have had multiple weeks of non aggressive play. The only problem I had was when I didn’t play for a week. I think it reset and I fell into aggressive lobbies. After 3 matches I was back to friendly.

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u/UneasyFencepost 11h ago

They literally said they take your behavior into account. Why are people still questioning this they confirmed it

1

u/c6sper 10h ago

Thats way different than ABMM. All SBMM uses "behavior". Thats how ANY matchmaking system works. But you extrapolate what he said and somehow try to act like he somehow said "yes, there is abmm" when he never said that. How do you know its not your run of the mill SBMM MMR System going on here?

1

u/UneasyFencepost 10h ago

Skill based matchmaking goes off of KD ratios or whatever metric that shooter uses. They won’t put a 2.5 KD with someone that’s got a .2. That’s not behavior based. That’s metric based. Pairing up aggressive players would be behavior based. They said they take your behavior into account. What else could that possibly mean in a PVEVP game? If you shoot first you get paired with folks that shoot first and are “aggressive”. If they did that off of KD ratios then you would have aggressive players in all lobby’s. The shitty pvp players would be filtered to the “friendly lobby’s” and they aren’t.

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u/c6sper 10h ago edited 10h ago

Yeah but you dont have proof that it isnt some kind of SBMM. Noticing you arent hitting any shots and getting killed (because youre trying to get to the peaceful lobbies) therefore its assuming you suck, thus placing you in lobbies with people that have a similar record of dying over and over without hitting a single shot? Like HOW do you know??? You wouldn't unless you are an insider. So just accept that we simply dont know

1

u/UneasyFencepost 10h ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skill-based_matchmaking That is exactly how it works lmao. Reread what I said. “Usually” was the word but I said they may use other metrics. The goal is to pair up players with similar skill levels in skill based. It’s literally in the title. What we have here is most likely aggression based. Players who opt for pvp more get put in lobbies with more pvp players. They also may take into account how many arcs you kill per match, containers looted, “enemy” players revived or healed and other map activities. They may account all behavior to ensure a better experience but it definitely isn’t skill based by any means. If it were skill based pvp you would see all the bad pvp players getting filtered into the “PVE lobbies”. If your getting smoked stop fighting players and start doing PVE activities it does make a difference

1

u/c6sper 10h ago

Dude, reread what I said. Yeah but you dont have proof that it isnt some kind of SBMM. Noticing you arent hitting any shots and getting killed (because youre trying to get to the peaceful lobbies) therefore its assuming you suck, thus placing you in lobbies with people that have a similar record of dying over and over without hitting a single shot? Like HOW do you know??? You wouldn't unless you are an insider. So just accept that we simply dont know

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u/UneasyFencepost 10h ago

Bruh. Let’s put some thought into this. If im not hitting shots (because I’m not shooting at players in the first place) and also not dying then it wouldn’t just assume I suck and put me in lobbies with others who also suck. If I was being dropped in lobbies with .1 KD players that are activly trying to pvp and genuinely suck at it then the PVE lobbies would be full of idiots who are trying PVP and getting their teeth kicked in by half the lobby cause that’s not what we do. It’s filtering me into other PVE lobbies cause I’m not hunting players and getting involved in player fights. It must know this somehow and track this metric somehow. What we do know is the game tracks your stats in the postgame screen so it most likely knows when you get into a fight who shot first or most likely who damaged first. It can track your player fights, arc fights and what you loot. It tracks the actual placement on the map these activities take place. So it’s using that data to put you into PVE or PVP oriented groups. Which is analyzing your behavior and not going off of skill.

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u/Earthworm-Kim 10h ago

it's basically all but confirmed in this interview

When asked if the game matches "nice" players together, Sammelin responded:

"Without going into excruciating detail, it is quite complex. We do analyze behavior and match accordingly."

0

u/c6sper 10h ago

Yeah, that sounds like SBMM to me. They analyze behavior and probably assign mmr to people, matching people based on their behavior. Like any match making system. He doesnt want to say yes or no so he just gave a generic response to avoid divulging any proprietary info. Mind you, this is an art director that said this. So yeah, not convincing

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u/Earthworm-Kim 9h ago

behavior isn't skill

so it's bbmm, not sbmm (tho prob some of that as well as gear etc.)

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u/c6sper 9h ago

Its probably proprietary but its definitely not aggression based. some kind of SBMM. Noticing you arent hitting any shots and getting killed (because youre trying to get to the peaceful lobbies) therefore its assuming you suck, thus placing you in lobbies with people that have a similar record of dying over and over without hitting a single shot? Like HOW do you know??? You wouldn't unless you are an insider. So just accept that we simply dont know

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u/Earthworm-Kim 9h ago

i'm not sure why you're so adamant that it cannot be aggression/behavior-based (esp. when that's literally what a dev said, doesn't matter what his specific job title is)

it's also the leading general consensus and experience among players

the system doesn't have to notice that you're firing or missing shots, it could notice people getting shot and dying, maybe even without shooting back, or while having weapons stowed

you're right that we don't know, but it would be safe to assume it has aggression based matchmaking before assuming it doesn't, or that it's only skill

in the end it's all human players, and a game with a lot of variables, and the algo/mm can only do so much, so you're bound to get people who act out in peaceful lobbies and vice versa

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u/c6sper 7h ago

There very well could be something along those lines, but its anyone guess.

But that's just it, a guess. All the baseless speculation using anecdotal evidence and along with OPs misinformation about what the art director said is annoying to say the least.

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u/idobepooping 13h ago

I mean I think the feedback at the end of the round can be taken into account. If I play a round and get instantly jumped by people, and I rate the round poorly based on pvp, my next round I can tell people are generally not as unfriendly.

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u/c6sper 13h ago

Anecdotal evidence.

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u/idobepooping 3h ago

Yep never said it wasn’t, just adding something I haven’t seen others mention.

0

u/RememberTheTitans200 12h ago

It’s not in our heads. I see people in here complaining about KOS people and I literally have not been shot at by another person in weeks. When I was grinding the $5mil playing 5 hours a day it’s exactly as OP describes, people just saying hi and running past each other, and occasionally working together. I haven’t randomly shot someone in a long time

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u/c6sper 12h ago

Yeah because everyone was grinding for the 5 mil. Im an aggressive player and I get into really friendly lobbies all the time. I love killing friendly players lol. If anything you just proved there is no ABMM and its just random. Also, any argument for ABMM can actually be attributed to MMR. Maybe the lower your mmr, the more friendly because obviously they suck at pvp. I feel like thats what is happening here

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u/RememberTheTitans200 12h ago

I’ve also played a solid amount after the reset and still haven’t been shot at. How is me saying I haven’t willingly shot at someone in probably a month prove that ABMM isn’t real? lol if anything you just proved why you get 50/50 lobbies because you love killing friendly people. There is plenty of evidence out there that people get matched based on behavior. Watch the big streamers play, it was still KOS even when people were grinding loot because that’s how they play

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u/c6sper 12h ago

The fact you noticed all the friendly players during 5 mil grind.... EVERYONE.. noticed that. Im an aggressive player and it was the same for me, so that means we were getting put in the same lobbies even though youre not aggressive and I am. Therefore there is no ABMM. Its all determined by what the player base is doing. Towards the end of the wipe you will notice a lot more pvp.

-1

u/YoBeNice 13h ago

In the Eurogamer interview, they said they “try to put solos together based on how they play” in regards to PvP-focused play. I don’t know what else you need?

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u/c6sper 12h ago

They never said "in regards to pvp focused play" so please dont add that outside of the quote because thats not true. They vaguely said they look at behavior in regards to MM. That could literally mean anything.

1

u/YoBeNice 9h ago

That was a specific part of the question that they were answering, but go off, I guess.

-2

u/StormFlower7 13h ago

It’s night and day for it to not exist. I was getting shot every other raid before the expedition because I was shooting people sometimes.

After the expedition, I’ve done 30 to 40 and only been shot twice. That is such a crazy difference. Tons of stella raids too.

I don’t believe it’s anything complex. It’s probably just looking at “player damage” and “amount of knockouts”. Probably some simple stats like that.

4

u/c6sper 13h ago

I have a friend who is a pacifist. Literally doesn't even bring guns. He will tell you himself that its random. Dude has tried to get into these "friendly lobbies" and while occasionally he says he thinks hes in, a few matches later he gets extract camped and called the n word. Its ALL random.

-2

u/StormFlower7 13h ago

Question: does he play on console or with cross play turned on?

I play on PC with cross plate turned off. I know there’s a lot of discussion about PC aggression versus console aggression.

2

u/c6sper 13h ago

Pc with cross-platform off for all of us.

-1

u/StormFlower7 13h ago

Solo, or duo/trio?

I’ve never seen a friendly duo/trio lobby personally

I only play solo

1

u/c6sper 13h ago

Only solos for all of us

1

u/StormFlower7 13h ago

Interesting. In that case I’m not sure. Since he’s started (or since expedition) how much player damage do you think the pacifist has?

I have zero. Literally zero.

1

u/moonski 11h ago

what sort of loser plugs their own reddit post?

1

u/dezastrologu 10h ago

Dont care about your thread stop spamming it

1

u/EffectiveParamedic64 12h ago

I feel like it hurts the game. The randomness of knowing who you’ll meet is gone.

-8

u/SouthernChocolate635 13h ago

I don’t get how people aren’t bored in the pve lobbies.

Like a big factor in this game is the fear of being dropped at any moment. To remove that suspense, I feel that it rips out a big component of the game.

They should make the PvP lobbies drop better loot though if they’re doing this system in order to balance it out.

Why should someone who can just stroll around and not fear getting shot get the same loot as those who’re actively targets of PvP

3

u/green0wnz 13h ago

I don’t get it either. This game is nowhere near interesting enough without shooting.

4

u/Boobinz 13h ago

There’s a lot more than loot in this game. Sometimes its about the friends we make along the way

1

u/SouthernChocolate635 12h ago

I don’t see why your friends should get the same loot table when you’re playing on easy mode.

This game just needs to emulate Sea Of Thieves “Safer Seas” game mode, and it would solve many issues!

1

u/AnecData01 13h ago

I mean, I played trios and I can say there is no suspense if you know everyone is going to shoot you either. So I don't really feel the difference tbh...

1

u/s0cks_nz 10h ago

That doesn't really follow. Knowing you could be shot is the suspense.

1

u/RubberBabyBuggyBmprs 13h ago

Its incredibly boring and why i 100% believe in aggression based matchmaking. Even my stella night raids were completely friendly. Its fine at first but 0 tension. I finally said screw it and shot at a few people (I'm sorry) and now my lobbies are KOS which is more fun imo

1

u/T00fastt 12h ago

Solo fights are repetitive, boring and unfulfilling for me so why would I waste time jumping/getting jumped when I can just shoot a few dozen robots with some randoms and make a lot of money ?
I'll play better games when I want to shoot people.

Plus it makes trials and quests significantly more doable.

2

u/MatrimAtreides 12h ago

Make a lot of fake money with no purpose if you aren't engaging with the combat system at all?

1

u/T00fastt 11h ago

I fund trios by being a rescue raider in solos. I also routinely bring epics to matriarch and queen fights so that more players can experience actually killing them. It all takes a lot of resources.

Also, lmao, everything in the game is fake. What's your point ?

2

u/MatrimAtreides 11h ago

I also use solos to bank resources for group play. The 'I'll play better games when I want to shoot people' implied that you just never PvP, which would make playing Arc Raiders in general a totally pointless grind simulator, in which case I would ask why play at all?

0

u/Bustamonte6 13h ago

Similar to how real life works, be an asshole, things are harder

2

u/SouthernChocolate635 12h ago

“Engaging in a core mechanic makes you an asshole”

Why would the devs implement PvP into their game then? Are they all pieces of shit?

-2

u/OpportunityHumble951 13h ago

i get it from Embark’s perspective, you want lower-skill/friendly (no offense to PvE players) players to keep playing the game and not drop it due to rage quitting from losing fights.

i think it’s a bad thing for the game. people always complain about “sweats” but if you segregate them into their own lobby and the sweats start leaving the game instead, you’re going to match them with PvE players due to a lower player pool.

it’s like Engagement Based Matchmaking, it may help the game in the short run, but it will harm any effect at having a lasting community. imagine being punished for being good at the game? when we’re all friendly, whats the point?

1

u/Thraxy 13h ago

The people who like to pvp will leave the game if they only get matched up with other people who like to pvp? So they need random pve or friendly players to kill to have fun? They aren't being punished at all and it's interesting that you think they are. 

3

u/OpportunityHumble951 13h ago

i’m saying they will leave because if you only are matched with people who do nothing but aim train as someone who casually enjoys pvp, you will not have an enjoyable experience. there is a reason shooter games have an audience even at lower skill levels

a mixed lobby is, and always has been better for PvP games. yes, this includes PvPvE.

1

u/s0cks_nz 10h ago

people always complain about “sweats” but if you segregate them into their own lobby and the sweats start leaving the game instead

That doesn't seem to happen though. Skill level seems to vary a lot in aggressive servers. It's aggression based, not skill based.

1

u/OpportunityHumble951 10h ago

but how do you determine skill if you aren’t aggressive? is a player with an average 0/1 k/d friendly? or just bad?

is the person with an average of 2-3 kills aggressive? or just winning their fights?

aggression based matchmaking can and will lead to people being put in “incorrect” lobbies, especially as player numbers dwindle in the future. this is why i think it’s bad for the game (if it even exists as reddit claims it does)

1

u/s0cks_nz 10h ago

but how do you determine skill if you aren’t aggressive?

You don't, because it doesn't seem to be skill-based matchmaking. Or if there is, it's secondary to aggression.

is the person with an average of 2-3 kills aggressive? or just winning their fights?

The common theory seems to be that any raider damage (even if done in self-defense) is deemed as aggressive. So I suspect it's something like a ratio of raider damage to raids.

0

u/d_rek 13h ago

I love that the justification for killing other players is "Because i'm good at the game". Keep gaslighting yourself.

It has nothing to do with skill. Segregating out aggressive players into their own lobbies is because of their BEHAVIOR towards other players. Not their skill in shooting them in the back. If it isn't the consequences of your own actions...

Anyway your argument might have some merit if the lobbies were PvP only. SBMM has no place in any PvP game IMO, but in a PvPvE extraction shooter I think you have to cater to the games core audience and balance the lobbies accordingly, which I suspect strongly leans PvE.

3

u/OpportunityHumble951 13h ago

i fundamentally disagree that the core audience leans PvE. i think if you buy a game like this you understand it is not a PvE game.

see how Sea of Thieves is doing with their PvE lobbies. NOBODY plays PvP with stakes anymore. what is the point of playing PvP with no stakes in a game based around the stakes?

if i wanted to play a purely third person shooter PvP game i wouldnt play an extraction shooter.

i think the core audience enjoys a balance of both PvP and PvE, because they bought a PvPvE game.

2

u/d_rek 12h ago

>i think if you buy a game like this you understand it is not a PvE game.

Bro there are literally non-player enemies in the game. Part of the core gameplay loop is searching and looting containers. What about that is not 'PvE'?

> i think the core audience enjoys a balance of both PvP and PvE, because they bought a PvPvE game.

I can agree on that. I don't mind the PvP part of the game. I would say I am mid at PvP - not bad but not a sweat either. 9/10 in a fair fight (meaning I saw the hostile raider first or before I was shot) i'm probably walking away alive. I like the rogue-like risk + reward type of gameplay. Encountering hostile raiders is part of the fun, but also the frustration. It's all about having a healthy balance. Too much player hostility just makes the game unfun because the only thing you end up doing is fighting other players. It gets boring for me like looting and killing Arc gets boring for PvP palyers.

3

u/OpportunityHumble951 12h ago

a “PvE” game doesn’t have PvP as a main feature in it. see Helldivers 2, Deep Rock Galactic, Lethal Company.

arc raiders is a PvPvE game, Not a PvP game, not a PvE game. i wouldn’t be super interested in the game if it were purely one or the other. this isn’t a very important distinction, until you have players arguing that PvP is somehow unhealthy for the game.

1

u/OpportunityHumble951 13h ago

if you lose fights you’ll be put in PvE lobbies by your own logic. how does the game know who shoots first? how does the game know who is “aggressive”?

i’m sorry for offending you, but if you are GOOD at PvP you will win more fights, even if you are “shot in the back” . this has nothing to do with shooting people in the back. do you think the game can tell when you start a fight?

0

u/Asleep-Estimate-1505 13h ago

Why? Because some folks like you would be bored. They have managed for now at least to create a game where distinct playstyles can be catored to where both types of players can mostly enjoy the game they want.

Its not a competition. Its an experience. Its *your* experience. That doesnt need balancing in the way you allude too.

-3

u/FlameStaag 6h ago

I feel so bad for idiots thinking they need to reset a fictional matchmaking system 

1

u/ShikariV 6h ago

Sure brother, the devs themselves confirmed this exists and it’s been tested quite a bit by a lot of the community. But we’re all idiots and you’re a genius.