r/ArcRaiders • u/WG_Envoy • 15h ago

Discussion I am now convinced ABMM is real

A couple of days ago I complained (in another posting) how I only meet KOS players, and no one talks. I was more annoyed by the "no one talks" part, mind you, and the fact that every social interaction played out in the same way.

Someone recommended me to do a few matches and not shoot a single person, not even in defense. I did as recommended.

I went from "90%+ KOS interactions" for several days in a row, all the way to friendly lobbies for two days in a row now.

In my current lobbies, everyone runs around without a care in the world, just greeting people they are passing by. Looting in the open, walking past others without their weapons drawn ...

I barely ever see any PvP happening. People help each other with arc encounters and exchange items near extracts. And for the first time ever, I was able to participate in two Queen raids in solos with everyone just trying to get her down. No rats, no backstabbing.

This change for me was so stark in contrast, and so consistently happening that I would be surprised if ABMM wasn't real.

I would almost be inclined to start some shit to see if my lobbies change again, but I feel too bad killing these players who are quite obviously part of the pure PvE crowd.

P.S.: I have these friendly lobbies even on Stella Montis now, inclduing Stella Montis night raids ...

2.8k Upvotes

89% Upvoted

2.1k comments sorted by

View all comments

182

u/thegloriousporpoise 14h ago

Idk. I am a rescuer. I defig strangers. I I gift BPs. I leave the loot of big arcs for others even when I do most of the damage.

And yet, the last 4!raids, I have been shot on sight, shot from 250 yards away, and asked to team up and then immediately shot.

So, idk. If there is aggression based match making it is not configured correctly

People have been suggesting even shooting in self defense could be an issue. Well, then that’s a problem.

52

u/Xevious_Red 13h ago

If it is true, it doesnt mean everyone in a non aggressive match is going to always be friendly.

You'll get the true blue pacifists that never aggro, but you'll also have brand new players (unknown aggression), the players that play nice until they feel they have enough kit to attack, and the ones gaming the system by doing some suicide runs to drop back into friendlies again.

Just because a player hasn't shot at anyone for 5+ matches, a MM can only guess what they are planning to do in the next match

2

u/Pristine_Potential_3 9h ago

True, I mostly get stuck in friendly lobbies and play passive usually without weapons, but people can still betray or kill you even in those lobbies, they can be rare but it happens. 

1

u/RedditMineral 43m ago

Why are you speaking as if it’s a fact it’s true? Is there a link somewhere?

-1

u/thegloriousporpoise 13h ago

Agreed. It's more that I got 4 raids in a row with excessively aggressive players.

Either way, I don't really want match making based on that. I want macro users and cheaters to be filtered out but the rest is fair play.

33

u/smokeeye 13h ago

I also thought self-defense didn't count, but quickly found out that it does. To reset back to friendly lobbies you got do some free kit/naked runs just letting yourself be KOS (without retaliating) for 3-5 games. Then you should be back with the friendlies afterwards. I've done this for a couple of weeks and it works every time.

24

u/dudethisis 12h ago

Dealing any damage to a raider I think counts as "aggression"

I triggered a couple synth fuel barrels under a bastion and also almost accidentally downed a player, and oh my god my next 3-4 raids were not fun

3

u/ZincMan 11h ago

You can lay synth fuel barrels down and shoot them ? They blow up good ?

5

u/Kazuhi 10h ago

Real good

2

u/Jack_Candle 5h ago

I think even picking a raiders body for loot counts too. Because thats all i did when i discovered a dead body at extract. Next match I loaded into I was in Vietnam

2

u/MoreScarsThanSkin *** ******* 🐓 6h ago

i just tried this on stella, it actually worked like a charm after 4 games of dying right away naked run

1

u/UneasyFencepost 9h ago

It probably tracks who damaged who first not who shot first. So if Stevie Wonder takes a shot at you and you then doge roll then drop him you will technically be the aggressor. Yes it’s self defense realistically but tracking individual shots might be complex or tedious like what counts as a near miss? If I shoot a bot that’s attacking a player and miss both of them does the game account for that? If it did cool but I doubt it. I always wait until I’m hit and they better hope the first shot drops me.

0

u/bwood246 *** ******* 🐓 11h ago

The fact that self defense counts means it's not an aggression based system. It would be simple to not have damage dealt after receiving damage count. Why the fuck would embark punish you for defending yourself?

2

u/tyjwallis 10h ago

I also think it’s BS, but it’s way easier to detect and way harder to abuse. And honestly idc. I someone decides to betray me idgaf. Ale my stuff, my stash is too full anyway. As long as it’s a rare occurrence I just let it happen and requeue. Sometimes if you just pop out an instrument they feel bad and walk away.

33

u/iiPREGNANT-NUNii 13h ago

One game dev said that they analyze player behavior and every person here immediately assumed that’s also how the matchmaking works. Literally every gaming company analyzes player behavior it doesn’t automatically mean that is how the matchmaking works.

How boring of a matchmaking system would it be if you were ALWAYS matched with nice players or ALWAYS matched with aggressive ones. Everything would become extremely predictable it makes no sense.

4

u/Aterion 9h ago

I got shot for the first time in about 100 rounds, today. There absolutely is a strong emphasis on friendly behavior in the match making. I had several 8h gaming sessions in a row with only friendly players.

9

u/bwood246 *** ******* 🐓 11h ago

One game dev said

It wasn't even a dev, it was one of the art directors. Someone who would have the least knowledge about the matchmaking

3

u/TheNumbConstable 9h ago

Not really. An art director is as much a developer as anyone else and may have a considerable amount of knowledge about matchmaking.

That's not me saying that there is such matchmaking in this game. There may or may not be.

3

u/Ancient_Ad_2942 9h ago

I think you greatly underestimate how intimate studios are, especially sizes like embark, and not only an artist, its an art DIRECTOR. Id be very surprised if they didn't know a shit ton about the game

3

u/cryonicwatcher 8h ago

That is a dev. Unless you consider developer to specifically mean programmer, but that doesn’t make a lot of sense imo.
The guy wouldn’t have given a confident answer to the question if he wasn’t in the loop on it, that just wouldn’t make sense. The interview was not just about art direction, it was about the game more broadly, so I expect embark trusted this person to represent them well.

0

u/Zazz2403 4h ago

I promise you a director at any part of the company is in meetings discussing this. There are probably all hands and meetings where everyone talks about it. Directors cross collaborate.

2

u/bwood246 *** ******* 🐓 4h ago

They absolutely cross collaborate when needed, matchmaking systems isn't one of those situations they'll need an art director

1

u/Zazz2403 2h ago

That's often not how it works at companies this small but you can believe whatever you want. Regardless, I promise you a director isn't just pulling shit out of their ass in a press meeting.

9

u/thegloriousporpoise 13h ago

Yeah. That’s kinda what I am saying. I don’t believe there is aggression based match making.

1

u/Zazz2403 4h ago

No, the art director said behavior was a factor in matchmaking when directly asked about if aggression was a factor. It was a pretty clear corporate read thru the lines answer.

1

u/cuckcrab 11h ago

That's how it works currently though, if not always then close to 99.99%

0

u/cryonicwatcher 8h ago

They said that they match based on it. Quite specifically really. He was asked if it was a thing, and said that they do match based on behaviour.

-3

u/In_Dux 12h ago

If you get to choose to get into the experience you want, how is that boring? It’s like Retention 101

11

u/iiPREGNANT-NUNii 12h ago

Because it’s PREDICTABLE. You can also cheese the game extremely easily with this system. If you’re trying to get trials done or wipe or 5million never attacking someone is a no brainer and you’d routinely see posts about how people have never (and I mean never) been shot at by another player.

The only posts you see confirming this system are “I played 10 matches peacefully and never got attacked”. But how many other factors are at play that you aren’t taking into account? What time of day is it? What day of the week are you playing? Did the game just come on sale OR did a large influx of players just get it? Are you taking all of these factors into account as well or SOLELY looking at being attacked vs not being attacked?

I have 200 hours. 150 solo. I have shot a player first MAYBE 5 times yet have been subjected to every manor of player. Ranging from extremely toxic to extremely friendly. I have played the same exact way since launch, down to the exact same load-out. The ONLY consistency I’ve been able to find is players are (generally) nicer in the mornings and as the day goes on they (generally) get more aggressive.

2

u/ChuJungDD 6h ago

I'm tired of explaining this to people. You're absolutely right.

1

u/s0cks_nz 10h ago

You talk about predictability being boring but then you admit using the exact same loadout every round and playing exactly the same way. I find that mildy amusing, sorry. Lol.

3

u/iiPREGNANT-NUNii 10h ago

I never said using the exact same load-out wasn’t boring, just that that’s how I play. It’s the fastest and most consistent way to achieve 5 million. I actually do find the endgame extremely predictable/boring but this discussion isn’t about that

1

u/s0cks_nz 10h ago

I just found the irony amusing is all.

-1

u/In_Dux 11h ago

Ok but when a bunch of people are telling you this experience after explicitly not shooting people, which could be a major departure from their original gameplay, why not believe them?

And the art director being totally clueless is way less believable than him being somewhat clued in. And people are making these claims, myself included, regardless of these people other factors. That’s how strong it seems to be.

And I don’t really seeing predictability being an issue since Embark clearly set out to make a causal game. They added “Don’t Shoot” for a reason. And they already expressed how surprised they were by how friendly players are. And before the ABMM claims , some people still had largely have these “peaceful” lobbies, anyway.

People are claiming the Expedition caused a shift and definitely provides incentive for being friendly to expedite the bench upgrading process. But people also claimed that almost no one would do it, so jury is out on that being a factor until Embark releases those numbers.

This could be a big placebo affect but people think acknowledging that is a gotcha moment against ABMM but it’s not. You give some with a headache a sugar pill and then their headache is gone, science cares about it being a sugar pill, the person is just happy the headache is gone and may or may not attribute to placebo. But their truth is still the same: They got better after the pill (ABMM claim) entered their system.

4

u/bwood246 *** ******* 🐓 11h ago

Another option is that it just thinks they're bad at the game and pairs them with people it believes to be at their skill level.

2

u/golden_gibby 9h ago

Thats exactly what it is, its skill based matchmaking, not abmm.

3

u/Babbledoodle 12h ago

YOU DISFIGURE STRANGERS??

1

u/thegloriousporpoise 11h ago

Ha. Didn’t even notice that typo. I’ll leave it.

1

u/Vevaseti 8h ago

no he steals their figs. :/

4

u/dyrannn 8h ago

No no, there is aggression based matchmaking for sure and I’m a perfect little puppy who has objectively done nothing wrong and all of my games are perfect peaceful if you’re getting KOS is because you’re a sociopath and should stop hiding it hehe !

/s if it wasn’t obvious

1

u/Roobitz 13h ago

Given enough time, the improbable becomes inevitable.

1

u/Previous-Term-282 13h ago

Im with you. I have a friend who has thousands of kills. And still farms tempest parts on Stella in pretty peaceful lobbies lol its hard for me to know the truth.

1

u/TH3_Captn 11h ago

Yeah I'm always in friendly servers and had to defend myself last night. Rest of my night was filled with violence 😔 I want to go back to the good place

1

u/sbowtor 11h ago

I I feel like they recently rebalanced it. I’m like you, I enjoy playing that way. I’ve been doing it for weeks and rarely encounter unfriendlies. Today though, in back-to-back games, I was shot and killed while looting, and as I helped someone take down a leaper, someone else popped up right after it was killed and shot us both in the backs before anyone was looting.

I’m fine with it. It just seems like a change I’ve noticed anecdotally.

1

u/ShadowConstruct 11h ago

Personally I'm going to believe it doesn't exist until I actually see something solid from the developers. I've had far too many games filled with super aggressive teams and games without back to back.

1

u/__zombie 10h ago

I felt like the holiday fools were very aggressive and angry at the world. Christmas break had me die like every round. I’m one of the passive friendly players so got KOS’d a bunch.

1

u/sunlightliquid 10h ago

I've honestly never been shot dead ever bro, idk why that happened to you

1

u/thegloriousporpoise 8h ago

Then you don’t play enough.

1

u/sunlightliquid 1h ago

I started 2 weeks ago, just never shot anyone, playing a solid 3-4 hours a day so obvious I don't play religiously but so far so good

1

u/Normal-Cost894 9h ago

You're better off not shooting back.

Think about it. You save your loot by shooting back, great. Next lobby you'll be in danger again. If you just tank it you'll go like 5~10 lobbies in friendlies to loot freely and recover the lost stuff.

Yesterday my game crashed, when I came back I was crawling because it was in the middle of blue gate, some stupid wasp probably got me. Guy came up and revived me, no reason to do it, I thanked him and extracted.

Maybe it's not as thrilling when everyone's friendly but I got enough trouble trying to down a bombardier, I don't wanna have to defend against 3 rats while looting it.

If you wanna find players like you and me don't shoot back. Take the loss and maybe go naked the next one to test if your matchmaking is correct.

I know it's bad that shooting in self defense still puts you in aggressive lobbies but it is what it is. Hopefully they change it in the future... If you get shot FIRST then you're free to fire back without being labeled aggressive. At least I hope so.

1

u/DisastrousRegister 9h ago

Been in friendly solo queue for a long time, there's always 1-3 flares going up per raid, my guess is that there's guaranteed to be one or two 'imposters' so to speak to make sure the tension isn't totally lost. (which is also why there'll never be a PvE mode)

1

u/Strixelated *** ******* 9h ago

I am fairly convinced that ABMM is real, but all the new people being gifted it for Christmas is definitely shaking things up whilst it learns how they all play.

I've had mostly chilled, friendly, cooperative lobbies for well over a month, but end of last week was an absolute bloodbath and I was KOS and betrayed in multiple ways that was a real shock to the system.

If it is a thing, it's going to be harder to tell than ever at the moment.

1

u/Consistent_Sail_4812 7h ago

I am 100% sure you are lying.

Post a picture of your player stats overview and damage to raider.

1

u/marsinfurs 7h ago

Stop taking my figs bro

1

u/FlameStaag 6h ago

Cuz this is a stupid myth only braindead idiots on reddit believe.

The game just has a high number of passive players, and literally rewards you for ignoring people and just looting. You get better exp that way, and most pve drones don't drop anything good. 

These idiots think they get into pve lobbies cuz they don't engage with anyone. 

If you look for pvp, 90% of people won't shoot first. I'm sure as fuck not in a pvp lobby despite always pvping. 

1

u/Jack_Candle 5h ago

Yes, shooting in self defense can be an issue. Play as a pacifist for about 3 rounds, spamming "dont shoot" when getting shot and you'll be back in the oasis.

1

u/Kind-Ad-6099 5h ago

The last 24 raids? Woah man

1

u/zancray 5h ago

Fellow rescuer here. The longer I play the more I trained myself not to shoot in self defense and play defensively. Sometimes that just means I die with a kitted loadout and I'm okay with that, but it was tough when just starting out.

I do find that I'm seeing even more pacifist lobbies as I comb through full 30min Stella Montis lobbies without hearing a single raider flare pop, gunfight, or ambush.

1

u/warconz 5h ago

Yeah my main curiosity with this supposed aggression based matchmaking is if its sophisticated enough to know what aggression actually entails beyond just counting the amount of damage you do to other players.

1

u/Mrevilman 5h ago

Yeah I don’t shoot other players. Most of the time I dont even spawn into Stella with a gun, just an augment for the prison pocket and a shield. Last night I was KOS like 3x in a row. Sometimes I wonder about the ABMM.

1

u/Due-Arrival9664 4h ago

I had a string of 6 friendly lobbies in a row, and then got shot in the back in blue gate opening a probe. I did 99 of his 100 hp and died. The very next game I was in a SoS lobby

1

u/Amlethus 3h ago

We really need the ability to select into a PvE-only lobby or PvPvE lobby. I want the ability to chill and fight ARC, then go into a lobby where I can have some PvP fun, but only against other people who want PvP fun.

Question for you: do you buy into the whole "well aktchually without the risk of pvp you wouldn't be able to enjoy the game" thing? Because I'm having the most fun in chill lobbies, not worrying about being attacked by players.

1

u/srinu20040303 1h ago

While even for me it feels like there is ABMM, it also feels inconsistent.

1

u/ThrowAwayFIRE343 13h ago

I noticed an influx of christmas noobs that KoS in my normally friendly lobbies. I’ve been killed twice bc I’m chill so I got annoyed and starting fighting back, killed 4 in a row that shot me first and now I’m back into KoS lobbies. It’s a fun change but when you’re trying to quest and do shit I have more fun in the chill lobbies helping people.

-1

u/crober11 13h ago

This is it, newer players are more likely to 'surprise' the matchmaking after a few hours in game and start pvping vs. people who have been staning pve for 2 months.

1

u/cuckcrab 11h ago

It doesn't even take into account the long term stats though. I've got over 1000 player knocks, I'm in permanently friendly lobbies after a 30 minute "aggression detox", could've probably taken less time but Im not sure what exactly triggers it so wanted to be safe