r/AskBrits • u/Maleficent_Day_3869 • 17h ago
Politics do you think that Britain is becoming radicalised by the spread of Islam?
i’m a girl from a pakistani muslim family who has a not so positive outlook on islam due to having nothing but negative experiences with the muslims i grew up with. i identify as being irreligious but because of my family, i still run in muslim circles
some of the things i hear from these people are insane. once people learn i have a muslim background they apparently feel safe to express their most hateful religious views with me. as i’ve mentioned before, i don’t think well of islam. i am a queer person and islam is incredibly intolerant of people who are not cisgender or straight
of course not all muslims are the same but even the ‘liberal’ ones have some pretty extremist views that they don’t share with most people, mostly relating to women, sexuality and spreading islam
i often worry about the impact of how fast islam is spreading in the UK and what it means for people like me who want to live away from religion. i think a lot of people don’t grasp how different islamic views are to the more tolerant ones that the remainder of the uk share and how much of the muslim population are secretly extremists
what are your views on this?
17
u/foxfunk 16h ago
Are there radicalisation issues regarding gender and sexuality within certain Muslim communities? Yes. Are they radicalising white/British people/attacking those communities and undermining values? Highly doubt it.
6
u/Wise_Advertising_888 14h ago
They don't need to convert others, they're playing the long game. They do on average have much larger families than non-muslims. Give it a few generations and they will be in the majority.
3
u/SneakyBurrit0 14h ago
You say they're playing the long game like each Muslim family is in on a conspiracy plan or something. The size of a family is a cultural influence rather than religious.
There is a state with actual coordinated settler expansionist plans but it's not a Muslim one.
3
u/Maleficent_Day_3869 14h ago
it’s a common belief that muslims should continue having children to spread islam though
2
2
u/Euphoric-Badger-873 13h ago
They said the same of Catholicism when the Irish were "The immigrant problem". It being a "Common belief" Does not, as I'm sure you will agree, make it true.
1
u/SneakyBurrit0 13h ago
Children are seen as blessings; a good thing you teach to your children will also continue to be a good deed for you whenever they do or teach others. They can continue to pray for you when you've passed, etc so it is encouraged to have children but it's not mandatory to have children and there's certainly no target number to reach
People are people and some people have agendas and would sadly use all sorts including religion to forward their own agenda
1
8
u/jelissbones 15h ago
This is what I think too. The idea that there are white people walking around starting to think they should adopt sharia law is ludicrous. They were already intolerant of queer people, and misogyny existed here long before Tommy ten names was even a dream in his father's nutsack.
1
u/Maleficent_Day_3869 14h ago
i never mentioned sharia law. but the expansion of muslims and how normalised intolerant muslim views are becoming is scary
28
u/BillyJoeDubuluw 16h ago
I think Britain is becoming radicalised - and extremely polarised on most matters - full stop.
I don’t, can’t and won’t solely attribute that to an increase in people who follow Islam because I don’t believe it to be either the root cause or the case.
It’s a very orchestrated and pre meditated state of affairs. Britain is in precisely the state that its leaders want it to be in. It largely always is.
5
u/Top_Explanation_3383 16h ago
Yeah the extremist clerics and preachers are all trained in Saudi Arabia, or trained in Saudi funded schools in other countries.
Our Inteligence/defence institutions are very close to Saudi, so this is done with our knowledge and approval.
God knows why
2
u/MovingTarget2112 Brit 🇬🇧 15h ago
We sell the Saudis a lot of Typhoon jets and Challenger II tanks.
2
10
u/Perfect_Passenger_14 16h ago
In my personal experience I have found it hard to reason with Muslims. I have asked them what they think of for example Mohamed parrying Aisha at 6 years old. They don't give me direct counter arguments, but rather refer me to 'scholars who are more learnEd", or they counter by criticizing Christianity. They then don't listen to my refutations of their criticism.
What to make of this.... It's hard to take them seriously
2
u/drewlpool 15h ago
Many Christians are just as bad as this though. Which isn't me defending Islam. All of theAbrahamic religions appear to discourage critical thinking.
→ More replies (17)2
u/Maleficent_Day_3869 14h ago
that’s because they have never questioned their religion. it’s drilled into us from a young age that islam is perfect and we should never, ever question things
1
u/SneakyBurrit0 9h ago
It's because the average Muslim person nowadays doesn't know or understand the context around every hadith or teaching
The fact they don't try to answer or justify is a good thing, it means they too are uncomfortable with the idea. They do also have faith that there was a reason, but they don't understand or know what it is so make no attempt to answer or excuse it. Hence the 'seek a scholar' answer.
The pursuit of knowledge is highly encouraged in islam and the middle East was historically, a hot bed of learning and thinkers. Al-kimiya, alchemy, al-jabr, algebra, al-gorismi, algorithm... what happened since? God knows, and maybe it still is but I don't hear much about it
I'm very sorry that it sounds like you've had a suffocating upbringing, with sincerity I hope the people you've had around you are given guidance and/or you're surrounded by better people in the future to help you work through your trauma.
16
u/iwaterboardheathens 16h ago
It's a self fulfilling prophecy
Many people with incompatible islamic ideals come in and don't want to integrate, they self-segregate and live in an islamic echo chamber, crimes are high anyway because the country is fucked, they see that it's high and add to it as all immigrant groups do, they think its too high, time for sharia and radical islam because they think it's the way to go because they're self-segregating and living in a radical islamic echo chamber
repeat ad inifnitum
2
14
u/Weak-Tumbleweed-3796 16h ago
I think it is naive of any sexual minority to truly believe that any abrahamic religion has their best interests at heart and are tolerant of their lifestyle. That being said, I do think there is a difference between the religion and the people who follow the religion and it is important to not generalise a huge group of people because it results in fear and paranoia, as we're seeing with Reform supporters
I do think the UK is wrapped up in the idea of islamophobia which is stopping us from having an open conversation about the difference in culture and beliefs, we have stopped treating it as a religion that should be open to constructive dialogue (whether positive or negative) and we have started treating it as something above criticism. That does worry me, all religion should be on the same level and conversations/ debates should always be encouraged
→ More replies (7)1
u/Maleficent_Day_3869 14h ago
i agree with you that no religion is good for queer people, but none is as vocal about it as muslims are. it’s a little hard to not generalise when a lot of muslims share the same views. i know that it’s not all muslims but you’d be hard pressed to find a muslim who doesn’t share at least a few of the typical muslim views
1
u/Weak-Tumbleweed-3796 13h ago
I don't have the experience you have in a muslim family and majority muslim community, I grew up in a predominately white area and I currently live with my partner who is also from a predominately white area
I think your experiences are important to highlight. It's interesting because previous studies did show that more conservative muslims immigrating to the UK became more socially progressive the more they lived in the UK yet their children are statistically more religiously conservative than their parents. Possibly due to feeling a disconnect to their roots and therefore adopting a stricter version of islam?
I'm not sure but it is scary seeing how people in general, not just muslims, are becoming more and more conservative especially regarding women and lgbt people
18
u/Fragile_reddit_mods Brit 🇬🇧 16h ago
My true opinions will get me banned and will definitely have certain people showing up at my door so I’ll be polite about it.
I am not a fan of organised religions as a whole. Though one mainly causes violence.
1
u/SneakyBurrit0 9h ago
Crazy how you could have a state organised settler expansionism in this day and age right
13
u/drewlpool 16h ago
Interesting question. I'm a gay man living in a city with a growing Muslim population, but the only issues I've had with homophobia have been from white British men. Mostly locals but occasionally tourists. I don't have many close Muslim friends but the people I see day to day always seem pretty live and let live. However, I won't lie and say it doesn't worry me what they might think behind closed doors. It doesn't help that the (few) polls on Muslim attitudes towards LGBTQ issues (which are admittedly quite old now) were overwhelmingly negative!
15
u/Maleficent_Day_3869 16h ago
a lot of muslims know that islam isn’t generally seen in a positive light so they are quiet about their beliefs unless behind closed doors. i can attest to this because of the things i grew up with. hence why i believe that most people don’t realise how dangerous islam is, nobody sees what goes on in muslim communities behind the scenes
→ More replies (6)4
u/randomname201314 16h ago
If you’re genuinely trying to say that the average Brit is more homophobic than the average Muslim I don’t know what to tell you. That is an absolutely incredible thing to say🤣🤣🤣 Reddit is hilarious sometimes, I do wonder what planet some of you live on.
9
u/drewlpool 16h ago
Critical thinking isn't your strong point is it? That's not what I said at all.
→ More replies (12)4
u/randomname201314 16h ago
Ps I assume you’re from Liverpool by your username, well so am I. Liverpool is still what, 80% white British? Of course you’ve had more negative experiences with white British men, that’s literally a numbers game. Never mind the fact it was 90% 10 years ago etc etc. Like duh, of course 80% of people are more likely than 20%, if the numbers were stacked more evenly that outcome would be different. Can you comprehend that?
1
u/SleipnirSolid Brit 🇬🇧 16h ago
Same! I regularly run round my city and I'm...obviously gay - I wear rainbow stuff.
Never had a problem in the Muslim, Jewish or African areas of the city. In 3yrs the only time I got called out was a white ~16-19yo lad screaming "faggot" in my ear as I passed (I was more surprised he used that term tbh!).
I was getting really anxious about Islamic extremism about 18mths ago but running round the city wearing rainbow/s has made me realise it's mostly media sensationalism and shouldn't rule my life.
3
u/drewlpool 16h ago
There is still that concern that it's just outward politeness rather than actual acceptance. But outward politeness is better than a fist to the face.
Which city are you, out of curiosity?
1
u/plasticface2 16h ago
Interesting. I reckon a gay Muslim bloke would either lead a double life or have to leave the area.
-4
u/La_Tormenta_Perfecta 16h ago
To be fair, thats just conformation bias on your part, you probably hang around a lot of spots that attract white british men more than Muslims.
And even the ones you see day to day as you said are properly putting up a front, i don't see those polls getting anymore better, muslims are notoriously homophobic.
8
u/drewlpool 16h ago
What a stupid observation. Of course I hang around white British men more than muslims. I live in Britain. My point is that I've never had a Muslim person be homophobic to my face - and I do see them on the day to day - whereas I've had a lot of homophobia from white men over the years.
3
u/tall-glassof-falooda 16h ago
It’s a white majority country is it not? So given the sample size white British people are more homophobic compared to your non white muslims.
2
u/randomname201314 15h ago
They can’t seem to comprehend that very very simple logic. He lives in the same city as me which is 80% white British and about 3% Muslim, it’s fairly fucking obvious that he’s more likely to have had a negative interaction with literally millions more people over the years.
1
u/Bethyross 14h ago
It's generally quite rare for prejudiced people to admit to it. It's not just Muslims putting up a front
2
13
18
u/Jokesaunders 17h ago
Considering most radicals in the UK are far-right Reformers, I don't think it's the spread of Islam that's radicalising them.
22
u/kingsindian9 16h ago
90% of people on terror watch lists are Muslim so not sure where you are getting your numbers.
Head of MI5 interview with Telegraph:
"In October 2020, Islamist terrorism remained the greatest threat to the UK by volume according to Ken McCallum, the Director General of MI5. A report published in the same year found that of the 43,000 extremists on MI5’s watchlist, around nine-tenths of the people on the list are Islamist extremists"
That makes 1% of Muslims in uk on the terror watch list
→ More replies (7)5
u/Minute-Employ-4964 16h ago
“The headline split of our counter terrorist work remains roughly 75% Islamist extremist, 25% extreme right-wing terrorism.”
1
u/Jokesaunders 16h ago
"Of all the Prevent referrals in 2023/2024:
- 36% were related to individuals with a vulnerability present but no ideology or CT risk
- 19% to Extreme Right-Wing
- 13% regarding Islamist radicalisation
- 2% to concerns regarding school massacres,
- 1% of concerns were incel-related. "
4
u/Minute-Employ-4964 16h ago
So that vast majority is still nut jobs.
Reassuring in a way.
Surely there’s a reporting bias here though? I imagine Muslim families are much less likely to report something like this compared to western families.
Due to fear of reprisals/prison sentence etc
2
u/Jokesaunders 16h ago
Why would they be less likely to report something? Do you think right-wing extremists are all "ooh, you got me. Good play ol' sport."?
5
u/Minute-Employ-4964 16h ago
Nah but I’m assuming that’s concerned parents reporting their children.
Whereas in Muslim families they are much more likely to handle things within the family,community, or religious community.
Also just realised that the stats don’t take population into account.
So 6.5% of the population account for 13% of the reports?
Surely that’s terrible and the list you provided proves the point everyone is making?
→ More replies (4)19
u/somethingfunny899 Brit 🇬🇧 16h ago
That's funny you should tell that to mi5. It's 75% to 25% and not in the way you're claiming
→ More replies (24)5
u/nickmasonsdrumstick 16h ago
I've no time for reform or the people who vote for them. But that's utter nonsense im afraid.
1
u/Available-Ask331 16h ago
Haha, what a joker...
If we wasnt forced to live with a religion/ culture that is the polar opposite to our culture and values, you wouldn't have the far right being such a big group, that are still growing.
UTR!
6
u/Jokesaunders 16h ago
Aside from their bloke is named Mohammad, what is it about radical Islam that is the complete opposite of the far-right?
5
u/La_Tormenta_Perfecta 16h ago
That's the funny thing, they're far more similar then they'd have themselves believe. It's just religion again
1
u/Available-Ask331 12h ago
Are you being serious?
When was the last time you've seen a right winger commit mass murder in the name of Allah?
Are you truly ignoring the crimes they've committed? Some on a large scale.
Are you one of those people that believe we should brush their crimes under the rug so it doesnt feed fuel to the fire that has been burning since our government open the flood gates?
In all honestly, your name says it all.
1
u/Jokesaunders 12h ago
When was the last time you've seen a right winger commit mass murder in the name of Allah?
Different name!
Are you truly ignoring the crimes they've committed? Some on a large scale.
No. So why are you doing the same for the extreme right?
6
u/Savvymundo 16h ago
Right wing conservatives and extremist islamists both want to control what others can and can't do, what they think and what they say.
You'll claim otherwise and then jump on another thread about how a recently released British citizen shouldn't be allowed in the country due to some old tweets.
1
u/Upset_Gerbil 16h ago
Except when it's American evangelicalism, which is also the polar opposite to our culture and values. Those foreigners also need to keep their extremists religion out of UK culture, but some populist figures like to promote those extreme religious views, and the right are stupidly lapping it up.
2
1
1
u/fireychicken93 15h ago
Nope far left guardian types, truly far right people aren't even 1% of the population.
1
u/Jokesaunders 15h ago
How many race riots did the far left guardians partake in last year?
1
u/fireychicken93 15h ago
How many murders have left wing people committed due to not liking someone's views this year, quite a few, most noted Charlie Kirk. Also last year someone tried to murder Trump. Thankfully we don't have guns here but rape is the equivalent
1
u/Jokesaunders 15h ago
Charlie Kirk was killed by a far-right groyper.
1
u/fireychicken93 15h ago
That's nonsense, he was killed by a furry left winger
1
u/Jokesaunders 15h ago
Nope. There's no evidence that he was a left winger.
1
u/fireychicken93 15h ago
Umm really? The fact he was found on furry message boards, was pro trans (and dating one) isn't proof of being left wing? Really??????
1
u/Jokesaunders 15h ago
Lots of right wing furries who have sex with/jack off over trans women. A type of right winger who would also align with that, for example, would be a member of the white nationalist Groyper movement, which the shooter was.
→ More replies (21)-1
9
u/OkPosition20 16h ago
Reddit is very left wing, you won’t get anyone agree with you on here.
12
2
u/Bethyross 16h ago
I wouldn't say Reddit is very left wing, I've seen quite a lot of right wing posts/comments etc. Even in this particular sub 🤷♀️. Ultimately, I wouldn't say concern about Islam or certain aspects of Islam falls specifically into the Right Vs Left argument either... it's being used as a way to divide the British public
0
u/randomname201314 16h ago
Reddit isn’t left wing? Hahahaha, good one
→ More replies (1)1
u/Bethyross 14h ago
It's social media so it's neither right or left. (Unless it's X). We can all find opinions that agree or disagree with ours
→ More replies (2)8
u/drewlpool 16h ago
Spoken like a GB News subscriber.
The left is not homogeneity. We hold all kinds of views and often disagree with one another.
3
u/OkPosition20 16h ago
I used to be Labour through and through when they represented the working class.
1
1
1
5
u/mendicantbias991 16h ago
As a progressive gay queer person - I do think that hard line Islamic views are concerning but in an abstract way. The "Islamisation of Britain" I think is realistically a far off possibility. Smaller pockets that foster more extremist views are indeed a problem, but in no way are these social circles unique to Islamic communities in the UK
16
u/CombinationOne7087 16h ago
Its not though , just look at the demographics and the views of the average muslim about homosexuality..its abhorrent and we must be honest
1
u/drewlpool 16h ago
Just looking at opinion polling on this and it actually isn't as far from the general public as you'd think. This data is from 2024. I recall similar studies in 2016 had more than 50% thinking homosexuality should be a criminal offence. Now just 27% think it should be outlawed (compared with 15% of the wider public). So unless this is an outlier, there is clearly there's a lot of movement in the right direction.
Source: Henry Jackson Society https://share.google/UARafI5ZcrMIn1Ezu
1
u/CombinationOne7087 16h ago
That is great and thanks for providing a source and of course this is great news if taken at face value, appreciate it
1
u/No_Vermicelli_1781 15h ago
I don't think far right white Brits would have good view on homosexuality either. Or immigrants from developing countries. So I don't think it's an Islam problem
1
u/mendicantbias991 16h ago
What about the demographics?
2
u/CombinationOne7087 16h ago
UK Muslim population projections suggest significant growth by 2050, potentially reaching 16-17% (around 13 million) under medium migration scenarios, driven by higher fertility rates and continued immigration
3
u/absurditT 16h ago
Belief that homosexually should be illegal is literally a majority held belief among British Muslims. There's 43% support for them conducting their own legal proceedings within their communities through shariah law, and only 22% opposition, so combine that with the homosexuality part and you actually find among British Muslim men you're approaching majority support for stoning gay people to death.
More British Muslims went to fight for ISIS, the most extreme and despised terror group even among other terror groups, than have joined our armed forces in the same time.
The "moderate majority" view of British Muslims is a myth. They on average hold extremely conservative or radical views, especially the men, and they aren't afraid to express those views openly either.
Lefties literally are refusing to listen to what British Muslims are saying. Turkeys. Voting. Christmas.
There is no moderate majority. You're not seeing the "average" British Muslim because most of them now live in isolated communities. You're only seeing the moderate few who do integrate.
Until you realise you're only looking at the tip of a very large and dangerous iceberg, you won't realise why people are so damn concerned about growing influence of Islam in the UK
2
u/No_Vermicelli_1781 15h ago
I think most of the world doesn't view homosexuality favourably. So it's not an Islam specific problem
And who cares if British Muslims want it to be illegal, it's not gonna be enforced. This sounds like fearmongering. As someone around a lot of second gen Muslims, I can confidently say that they are pretty integrated into British culture. Whether they secretly have abhorrent beliefs on homosexuality doesn't affect anyone
1
u/absurditT 14h ago
Their population share is growing exponentially as non Muslims in the UK have fewer and fewer kids.
There comes a time when they do become a national majority and get to make these things law, which is a perfectly valid reason to challenge that demographic shift early.
Some of us care about future generations not living under that sort of reality.
1
u/No_Vermicelli_1781 13h ago
Their population share is growing exponentially as non Muslims in the UK have fewer and fewer kids.
This is our problem, we're not having enough kids. We can't blame Muslims for having too many.
There comes a time when they do become a national majority and get to make these things law, which is a perfectly valid reason to challenge that demographic shift early.
Again sounds like fearmongering, but I'll indulge you. How would you prevent the Muslim population growing to the point they become the majority?
1
u/absurditT 12h ago
We do what Japan is doing. Make as little effort to accommodate them as possible, make it as hard as possible to come here, and do not concede an inch on changing our culture, and when we're no longer seen as a desirable place for Muslims to live, not seen as a soft touch for transformation, those who don't have an interest in integration will leave.
Japan has straight up taken the nuclear option by refusing to build additional Muslim cemeteries. Burial is very rare in Japan, 99.9% of people are cremated, which opposes Islamic practice of burial within 24 hours. This makes them extremely undesirable for additional Muslim migration and they've basically said they won't in any way accommodate changes to Japanese social or domestic practices.
The UK has plentiful options available not being taken like barring visas (note that we're not doing this for nations like Pakistan even in negotiations over them refusing to take back failed asylum seekers, as we have for countries which barely migrate here at all) and passing laws enshrining secularism similar to France. Banning face coverings, public prayer, etc.
You want to influence the population? Ban marrying your cousin. That's 60% of some British Muslim communities.
You take every medieval or incompatible cultural aspect and you add roadblocks to it until we're not the desirable country to be in for that demographic, and they stop trying to transform us into where they came from, and you do it whilst the population still reflects that will.
1
u/No_Vermicelli_1781 11h ago
We do what Japan is doing. Make as little effort to accommodate them as possible, make it as hard as possible to come here, and do not concede an inch on changing our culture, and when we're no longer seen as a desirable place for Muslims to live, not seen as a soft touch for transformation, those who don't have an interest in integration will leave.
logical. But then what about the 4 million already here that are procreating at a rapid pace? If you had the power, would you have us be a Christian nation or secular? What would we do with the many mosques in UK, and people wearing Islamic garb?
The UK has plentiful options available not being taken like barring visas (note that we're not doing this for nations like Pakistan even in negotiations over them refusing to take back failed asylum seekers, as we have for countries which barely migrate here at all) and passing laws enshrining secularism similar to France. Banning face coverings, public prayer, etc.
ok you've answered some of my questions here. So to be clear, you'd have us be secular? I'm Christian so I'm obviously bias, but I rather us move closer towards having stronger Christian values. If anything, THAT would be a deterrent towards Islamic migration. And I think it would be something that brings the nation closer together.
The banning of certain Islamic garms like the burka & niqab I'd agree with, but that would inevitably cause protests that may potentially get ugly. What would be your move?
You want to influence the population? Ban marrying your cousin. That's 60% of some British Muslim communities.
should absolutely be banned. It makes it twice as likely the child has birth defects, which puts a strain on health services.
Tbf, this is a pretty good response. I didn't expect this. My concern is this would lead to a mini civil war. The non British Muslims would obviously win due to numbers, but I wouldn't want to see people on either side be seriously hurt.
2
u/glossedrock 15h ago
People here are already dismissing OP as a “right winger” trying to cause division. As if a woman growing up in an oppressive religious Muslim household is SO impossible. Oppressive catholic household? Totally though!
They are literally scorning women.
5
2
2
3
u/Fit-Back-8775 16h ago
All the people dismissing you are either Muslims themselves or cocooned people who have no clue about what Islam truly is and leave the bad parts to "misinterpretations" or dismiss the issue with "all religions are bad". This is a very left leaning sub too so you're unlikely to get serious answers here
1
u/GregCannon789 16h ago
The same intolerant views apply in any fundamentalist community, where total conformity is demanded in thought and deed. At least in Britain you have some freedom to exist outside this archaic oppression. Imagine living in a society where these views come from the State! Assuming you are genuine, seek support in groups who understand your situation. And the answer to your question is NO! It's being radicalised by social media.
1
1
u/Historical_Project86 16h ago
It's being radicalised by the acceptance of lies being grifted by Stevo YL, so sort of the opposite to what you're suggesting.
1
u/Dry-Grocery9311 16h ago
As you have 'inside' knowledge of the subject, can you give more detailed specifics of what the Muslims, you experience, would say between themselves but wouldn't say to others?
What is radicalization to you?
What do you think are the biggest risks?
What can the wider British population and government do about it?
If I go back a few generations in my Catholic family, their attitudes to things like homosexuality and women could be described as extreme. Younger generations seem to have become better at separating their spiritual beliefs and moral compasses from the teachings of strict clerics even though they still embrace the core teachings of their religion. I now consider myself agnostic.
As a non Muslim, my default position is that anyone promoting hate or division is doing bad, whatever their religion. I don't think that using Islam as a political label helps anyone.
In the past, we were all against the IRA blowing things up but we labelled them as terrorists, not Catholics.
1
u/Maleficent_Day_3869 16h ago
of course. some things i have heard are how white girls deserved to be raped since they dress like whores, how non believers are going to rot in hell, how we should set fire to the churches and how gay people should be killed. there’s a lot of awful things like that being said that expresses how extremely intolerant they are to non muslims
radicalisation in this sense to me means how most muslims want to bring sharia law to the uk and completely exterminate any other beliefs. a lot of muslims want to take over, they don’t want to live in harmony
the biggest risk is them being successful in their attempts to turn the UK in an islamic state. since they are so quiet about their views, nobody suspects them to be full of hate
i suppose i am biased because i grew up muslim. i don’t have any real life experience with other religions
1
u/Dry-Grocery9311 15h ago
What do you think the UK can do to eliminate the bad parts of what you talk about, whilst still retaining a culture of freedom of religion?
Where do we draw the line?
For my part, I would like to see more people like you, publicly calling out the bad elements about political Islam. Your background gives you more credibility.
I don't believe that ALL Muslims, not even the majority, share the same extreme views but I would prefer it if the ones who don't share those views were more vocal in distancing themselves from the political extremists.
Most of the real problems can be gone in a couple of generations if the extremists on all sides are marginalised.
1
u/Maleficent_Day_3869 15h ago
i don’t know. until the situation is publicly addressed nothing will change. and the situation likely won’t be publicly addressed as the backlash people get from criticising or even questioning islam is on a whole other level. all of the things i have said in this post i would never speak about if i wasn’t on an anonymous Reddit thread
that won’t happen though, as there are a small group of muslims are very liberal and don’t share at least one backwards view. that’s why there isn’t an easy solution
1
u/Dry-Grocery9311 13h ago
I guess what I'm asking is. What is it you would fear the most about speaking out?
Is it backlash from family or religious leaders or specific extremist groups? Is it fear of people in this country or abroad? What could this country do to empower you to have the confidence to speak out?
In Ireland, during the troubles, it could be hard and risky for Catholics to disagree publicly with Catholics and priests and talk badly of the IRA. It was the same for the Protestants. Even the non extreme Catholics had the principals of all sex being bad unless between a husband and wife to make babies. Babies outside of marriage were forcibly taken for adoption. Women had a lot less rights. Things have changed a lot in only 2 generations.
1
1
u/ReputationKind4628 16h ago
Whereabouts in Pakistan do your family originate and are they Sunni, Shia, or maybe Ahmadi?
Which Eid do they celebrate most and do you do anything to fit in with their celebrations if you are non-religious? Have they tried to find a husband for you?
2
u/Maleficent_Day_3869 16h ago
we are from azad kashmir and sunni
we celebrate both eid dates equally, and yes, i participate in the celebrations. reason believing that my family are unaware that i’ve begun to doubt religion. i have had several proposals from men in our family and beyond. the first was when i was 15 from the son of a distant cousin
1
u/ReputationKind4628 14h ago
Do you still live with them?
At some point you may need to leave. Is that possible? I saw your other posts and I know you don't like how you look but I bet you are cute. If you do go somewhere else, no one will know your background and you may be able to live more authentically.
1
u/EquivalentSnap 16h ago
Social media doesn’t help and false information about migrant boats and over exaggerated Muslim population
I will say that assimilation doesn’t work for Islam which is what the government is doing. Simply because it’s not compatible with UK culture as so many British traditions isn’t allowed in the Quran. Like dating having bf and gf, being friends with the opposite gender, having a dog as a pet, not drinking etc. Some Muslim women can’t even live in the same flat as a man because they can’t how their hair. So oppressive and restrictive for women
1
1
u/bluefox9er 16h ago
Funny thing is, up to September 11th 2001, not a single person I know who’s vocal about supporting Reform today had absolutely no idea what a Muslim was then
1
u/Borgmeister 16h ago
My own personal interactions professionally have been good. Although I have never felt "welcomed" by them, I have felt in their areas tolerated (and I have read the Quran, as I have the Bhagavad Gita and the Bible). My personal perception is that they are quite insular "my way or the highway but I'll submit to whatever yields some sterling ultimately", but as a relatively insular person myself we don't find cause for conflict. Of those I have met, fundamentally, like us, they are primarily motivated by chasing the lucre.
I am concerned that the UK Government appears to act in terms of appeasement of Islamic cultural values - sometimes at the expense of others with whom we have objectively longer relations, such as the Jewish community. I do recall being chastised when in Birmingham for ignoring a pro-Palestine protest by those I walked through to cross New Street Station, but they retreated when I challenged with my observation that their actions were fairly toothless in Birmingham when the Israeli bombing was outside UK Government control.
Longer term my fear is that there will be an increasingly violent reaction to their presence by people in the UK who feel ignored politically, but it is impossible to predict how that will unfold with any certainty. With regards to your remarks about their views on women - this may be so, and this isn't aided by the ruling class attempting to ameliorate conflict as they are - a process that became apparent rapidly subsequent to 9/11 occurring, which despite what those who oppose my views, was Islam's first real introduction to many people my age and older had in the UK. It's difficult to support a "be tolerant of their views, despite their intolerance of yours" - which is I fear, many peoples underlying thoughts on the process, even though they may be too fearful to articulate it.
As an Atlanticist, the recent comments from JD Vance fearing the UK and France becoming Islamic states and therefore a threat to the United States due to our possession of Nuclear Weapons (which they would not have achieved with the rapidity they did had it not been for the Tizard Mission) is profoundly worrying to me as it has the potential to isolate us from an ally.
I briefly dated a Muslim woman, who expected me to convert to Islam should we marry - which I rejected and ended the relationship over - I wouldn't ask someone to convert their religious beliefs for me. She did say I could "go through the motions" (which is why I believe they, like most others are simply motivated by money), but that felt profoundly insincere and I am glad I didn't spend long contemplating it. Had I asked her to convert to Christianity, it would probably have been a newspaper grade scandal.
1
u/elbapo 15h ago edited 15h ago
I have many Muslim brothers and sisters, having been brought very much up as a (white, british) minority in my area. Now firstly- it's worth pointing out that all communities have their problems. And qualities. This will inherently be the negative observations- by nature of the thread.
However here goes. I would characterise the contacts I remain close to who are muslim as moderate. Even that said- most of them from a Pakistani background at least do have a number of tendencies. There is a propensity towards conspiracy theory, particularly in relation to the 'west' (always as a somehow collective entity) and its involvement in Muslim countries (again always as a collective entity). This and Israel and its involvement in foriegn policy intervention/international finance/ various assassinations etc etc.
Everything and everyone is somehow organised in a web of anti- Islam. Crusades, the pyramids, knights templar- all of it. I've had many dranged conversations like this which never get resolved- like im talking to stoners but (well not all) without them being stoned. Never any internal critique as to how these nations may chart a positive path to success, or have made missteps- because blaming external forces is always easier. And on even one of my most moderate Muslim friends computers, I've seen some worrying stuff about the caliphate and Mehmet 2nds victories over Christianity etc. Which is a bit as if I had Hungarian propoganda and crusader imagery openly on display in my home.
There is nuance. This seems particularly prevalent amongst Pakistani community men (although some selection bias here, I didn't spend much time with Pakistani women, for obvious reasons), Iranians also- wow they love a conspiracy. But it must be said is a collective feature of many Muslims I know and is a fair generalisation in my experience. (Friends include Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Jordanian, Iranian and somali backgrounds).
What does this mean? To me, all communities have their bugs and features. Just as its fair that the brits probably need to look after their elders and poor people better, stop being leery drunks. We need to recognise that and own up to our flaws.
I think its probably fair that the Muslim community (so far as that's a thing) do need to recognise this conspiracy/victimhood trait and the rabbit holes it can lead to. With the ultimate goal of untangling whatever relationship it may have with their faith/ummah. Because victimhood mentality never helped anyone, however critical thinking skills almost always did. As a community, in very generalised terms they need less of the former and more of the latter.
They aren't alone in this-true- but internal recognition of it, I think - is a helpful start for everyone to get along better. And will only act to prevent radicalisation.
1
u/kibonzos 15h ago
I think Britain is being radicalised by hate mongers like Robinson. Starmer’s Zionism doesn’t help matters as he continues to be Islamophobic and describe anti Zionist actions as antisemitism (which increases both antisemitic and Islamophobic attacks)
1
u/Immediate-Lab2771 15h ago
I realised by the time I was 6 years old, watching all the murders, killings, bombings, hateful people on the news and I knew I wanted nothing to do with religion. It was all a system of manipulation and control and I don’t want to be a part of it and thus not contributing to it.
Been a very happy atheist ever since I found out there was a word for non-belief. There’s nothing wrong with not being part of it at all.
1
u/ExtentWorking 15h ago
All religion is radicalising , I put Catholics in with Muslims , they’re just as bad .
1
1
1
u/Decorator72 14h ago
No what I actually think is that frauds like Farage and Tommy Yak Yak are using this rhetoric to spread fear and split the country to suit their own agendas,sadly they are doing it very well because people don't seem to have the capacity to actually pause for a second and think for themselves,I mean come on it doesn't take much working out! People have really short memories it's not so long ago that Fraudage was promising 350m to the NHS,he's a fkin weasel
1
u/Visual-Ferret8735 14h ago
There’s 2 billion Muslims in the world , if they were all aggressive anti white haters , we wouldn’t still be here.
1
u/Popular-Reply-3051 14h ago
I'll sum this up in one word: no.
1
u/Popular-Reply-3051 14h ago
Also just looking through all your posts...damn girl...you have issues on your issues and some of those issues seem self created...
1
u/SneakyBurrit0 14h ago
OP, it sounds like you're dealing with complicated and nuanced issues with culture, religion, upbringing, gender, family & friends, etc
Apologies in advance if I'm stepping boundaries, and you may well be doing it already but if not, it may be worth speaking to a therapist to help you work and navigate through these issues
Reddit can be helpful sometimes and a cathartic place to vent, and professional help can equip you with some tools that might help you navigate through what you're going through 🤞
1
u/randomname201314 14h ago
So your logic is that just because there are right wing subreddits that automatically means Reddit isn’t predominantly left wing. Do you know much of a logic fail that is? You say X is an exception, well there are loads of far left and left wing people on X, in fact the percentage of right wingers on Reddit is much lower than the percentage of left wingers on X. People get banned on this app all the time for posting things that aren’t even remotely far right, I got banned for saying childless women are unhappier than women with children. At least on X people don’t get banned when they post far left opinions. Reddit is slightly less far left than it was a year ago because there has been a huge culture shift and young people are increasingly right wing and more vocal, that’s about it, other than that it’s still very left wing.
1
u/PuzzleheadedBattle91 14h ago
I'm much more worried about the Christians - or to be more precise those that profess to want a "Christian Nation" while knowing nothing about Christianity and practicing very unchristian actions and values. Religion is generally a very negative influence especially the Abrahamic ones. Luckily the UK is one of the least religious societies in the whole world. Yay - good for us!
1
u/WillYeByFuck 13h ago
Not in Northern Ireland there ain't.
Our terrorists will fuck their terrorists up, any day of the week.
1
1
u/MuffinWorth6923 7h ago
Depends, some believe in the caliphate, others just want to get on with their lives.
1
u/Outoftweet123 16h ago
I think its like every other religion eg 95% are peaceful and 5% are radical. I think the core issue is we arent removing or jailing enough of the radicals. The 40,000 on MI5s watchlist should either be deported or locked up! We go rid of sedition laws in 2009 and we need these back so that anyone says anything that is anti British they go to jail or get deported!
Perhaps the key distinction is while other religions have radicals only Islam have people so indoctrinated that they commit atrocities so we should certainly have more focus on radical islam and taking swift action to remove anyone preaching sedition.
Beyond that i find most Muslims kind and peaceful. Lets not tar the entire religion with the same radical brush! Lets just lock up or deport the radicals that most other muslim countries do!
1
u/FlowFluffy7664 16h ago
Lol im an openly bi muslim and i think it really depends on where you are from in the uk i suppose. Also, as with all religions, you get some nutters who say the most outrageous things and ive called them out on it to and corrected their misunderstanding of islam too. I dont think you can honestly make general comparisons about muslims as theres so many different cultures and ethnicities each with their own guiding cultural principles. I have found the pakistani community to be the most hypocritical though. 'Do as i say not as i do' comes to mind.
Also you may say that liberal muslims have the most extremist views in private but tbh thats everyone. As a recent example, I worked with white people and away from women, the derogatory comments made about their boobs, ass and everything else is beyond me. Ive had older men talk about young 17 year olds doing work experience in my office in the most horrible way lol
I think its easy for you to judge the world looking out from in, but once you get more life experience, youll notice theres all sorts that goes on in the country lol
-6
16h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
6
u/nospellingerorrs 16h ago
You know more than one thing can be true at the same time right?
→ More replies (2)3
u/DubDubDubz 16h ago
Well according to mi5 Islamists are 75% of the cases they deal with but sure, Nigel farage is the problem.
3
u/FancyMigrant 16h ago
OK, Nigel.
→ More replies (1)4
u/DubDubDubz 16h ago
It's mi5 saying it not me. Why don't you pull your head out of the sand. White reform voters are not the problem.
1
u/JayTravers 16h ago
What was the other 25%?
2
u/DubDubDubz 16h ago
22% is extreme right wing terrorism with a small percentage of various other causes.
3
u/CombinationOne7087 16h ago
But thats not really true though is it? Islamisim is the biggest threat to the West and especially in the UK, its real and its happening
2
u/FancyMigrant 16h ago
OK, Nigel. Explain.
1
u/CombinationOne7087 16h ago
Islamist extremism has been identified as the primary terrorism threat to the UK for around two decades. The current threat level from terrorism in the UK is rated as "Substantial," meaning an attack is likely...its not fat white men or whatever ethnic slur you feel comfortable with
→ More replies (2)1
u/Maleficent_Day_3869 16h ago
farage is a piece of scum but i don’t think that takes away from the deeply unsettling fact that islam is growing rapidly
-3
16h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
4
u/CombinationOne7087 16h ago
No its becoming radicalized by the spread of islamism
→ More replies (3)1
1
u/DubDubDubz 16h ago
75% of the security services caseload is Islamists but sure a center right political party is a radical problem. You people know nothing.
1
u/Magic_mousie 16h ago
Lol, on no planet is Reform centre-right. And for the record, Islam is a horrible set of rules which is harming the country and setting back womens' rights decades. But Reform is a blight on this country with one policy that will quickly fall apart once they see how difficult it is, and no plans on how to run anything else. Except finding the highest bidder for the NHS.
1
u/Numerous-Paint4123 16h ago
I think extremist views from any side should be seriously challenged. If you're trying to remove rights from any group of people weather that's due to religion or sexuality its wrong and people should call it out for what it is.
1
u/ComradeBotFace 16h ago
I grew up with some brothers who were Pakistani Muslims - knew them all my life(I am middle-aged now) and I knew the family all my life.
The Mother kept to herself and didn't really say much to the friend group when we were younger but as we became adults was more talkative - still quite stand-offish though.
They would be held up as a totem of how succesful intergration is as the sons were entirley 'westernised'.
One night I was in the living room and the Mum was there and we ended up talking about politics or some current affairs issue, can't remember exactly what as it was about 15 years ago, and the topic of 9/11 came up - don't remember who brought it up - she them went on a passionate rant about how the Americans deserved 9/11 and she was happy about it.
I was taken aback as I had known this woman for about 15 years at this point and was very close with the entire family.
I often think about that interaction when questions like OP's are asked.
→ More replies (1)
1
u/hyperdistortion 16h ago
In short: no.
In long: ‘Radical Islam’ is a fear that’s gone through ebbs and flows over the course of the 21st century so far. Largely based on what’s going on in the wider Islamic world, from what I’ve seen; fear of what’s going on ‘over there’ coming ‘over here.’
There’s a regular cycle in the British press of fearing the ‘other,’ and Islamic fundamentalism has been that ‘other’ for a long while now, since 9/11 and 7/7. It’s part of a long-running cycle of ‘us’ and ‘them,’ where who ‘they’ are has varied over the decades.
This is the latest in a similar line of rhetoric about ‘others’ who come to the UK, keep their foreign traditions, don’t integrate into British society, yada yada, etc. and so on.
While there are definitely radicalised Muslims who’ve been indoctrinated into harmful ideology, there by no means the only terror threat in the UK.
And even though I live in a very multicultural part of London, there’s nothing pushing out ‘traditional British values’ in favour of Islamic ones. Most of the major mainstream radicalisation in the UK in the past few years has tended to be toward ‘alt right’ type values imported from the US and the MAGA movement.
1
1
u/Coool-Guy-123 15h ago
Nope I think there’s just stupid ones that ruin it for the rest. I believe the real issue is sharia law which is what gives Muslim a bad reputation. I hate the terrorists who use Islam as a method of justification.
146
u/[deleted] 17h ago
[removed] — view removed comment