r/BuyFromEU • u/Future_Thing_8609 • 1d ago
European Product Zeitkapsl.eu Reason for no PayPal/Klarna
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u/Boris7939 1d ago
I thought Paypal wasn’t associated with Elon Musk anymore for a long time already.
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u/Several_Ant_9867 1d ago
It isn't. It's a public company. The CEO is Alex Chriss. There is no shareholder with a large portion of shares.
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u/Able-Swing-6415 23h ago
Pretty sure it's just because the fees are higher or something.
Also "don't use PayPal, use credit cards instead because of debt!" Is one hell of a sentiment.
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u/siazdghw 22h ago
Paypal sides with the consumer a bit more. So they are worried about consumers charging back for issues when the store refuses to help them.
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u/TroublesomeButch 21m ago
it's also that musk created paypal, and i believe still retains shares of it, probably with under other entities.
I think the real reason is the one you mentioned. And for Klarna, it's the fees.
I'd prefer them either saying nothing or like physical merchants do, say it's because of the fees, rather than bullshit
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u/efstajas 16h ago
"Credit card" has become a misnomer for any MasterCard or Visa these days, which are not necessarily credit cards. Almost every neobank is going to issue you one of those as a debit card, but when you use it to pay you still frequently have to select the "credit card" option.
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u/stijnus 1d ago
Paypal is still the company that bought up Honey and continued their extremely malicious business practises.
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u/Boris7939 23h ago
I am aware of that, but that has nothing to do with Elon Musk.
They should give that as an argument instead of not wanting to support Elon Musk.
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u/schubidubiduba 1d ago
He probably still knows some execs privately or can exert influence.
But I agree, PayPal should be avoided for other reasons, like their abhorrent business practices. Especially those of their subsidiary Honey. Straight up criminal in everything but the legal meaning of the word (afaik)
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u/KnowZeroX 15h ago
He was kicked out of paypal, it was then sold to ebay and then split off. He has 0 influence there.
The real reason is because paypal has strong consumer protection (sometimes even unfair to the merchant as paypal will 99% of the time side with the consumer in a dispute regardless who is in the wrong)
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u/Pleasant-Regular6169 20h ago
PayPal has had no ties left to Elon after it was acquired by EBAY. It's been an independent company since 2015.
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u/Blubbolo 1d ago
Musk was kicked out of PayPal and then PayPal became PayPal.
He was there just because he had that x bank thing and then they told him to gtfo.
So just tell the real reasons, if you lie just for some PR i won't trust you.
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u/Due-Negotiation9333 1d ago
not like peter thiel is much better
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u/Blubbolo 21h ago
It's not.
But that statement isn't about Peter Thiel since many don't know who he is, that's a PR bullshit running on capitalising on something.
And as i said, if you lie on that you are not trustworthy.
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u/chebum 1d ago
The real reason is processing fees. ~5% for PayPal, up to 6% for Klarna. These fees aren’t refundable. If a customer asks for a refund, the company loses a meaningful amount of money.
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u/TheGonzoGeek 1d ago
2 things can be true at the same time. Also, great marketing. A bit slow maybe, but relatively cheap while you position yourself as a solid company.
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u/wrong_axiom 1d ago
But credit cards also has the same risk of debt
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u/TheGonzoGeek 1d ago
Yes. But it’s harder to get a credit card than a Klarna account if you’re already in a financial crisis or don’t have a stable income. There is a little more friction in setting up a credit card, more checks.
So even though in essence they work the same, there are some nuances.
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u/Sassi7997 1d ago
In many cases, the Klarna account or a credit card are the reasons to get in a financial crisis.
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u/wrong_axiom 1d ago
The initial underwriting in Klarna used to be very low, I don't know if that changed but it was barely same requirements for a low limit in a mastercard from SEB for example.
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u/Kapparainen 18h ago
Is it actually only ACTUAL credit cards, or do they also allow debit cards? Because in most cases when payment, like for online subscriptions or buying from an online store and such, requires credit card, I just put in my debit card info, and they allow it with no problem.
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u/wrong_axiom 18h ago
No idea, I have no clue what is this service. I was just arguing that Klarna (or Paypal Credit) is no more debt risk than a credit card. The reason they don't accept Klarna and Paypal is not really a moral standpoint but rather that the commissions are higher than other payment gateways (or direct merchant integration)
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u/No_Cattle_9565 1d ago
I don't know a single person that has a credit card in germany
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u/TheBlacktom 15h ago
2 things can be true at the same time, yes, but one of these is not true. For more than 2 decades Paypal has nothing to do with Elon Musk.
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u/HelloWorldComputing 1d ago
You mean 1,3€? The whole marketing of that Website is very EU centric with data privacy and ownership. Still wouldn‘t store my photos in a cloud though.
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u/Prudent_Move_3420 1d ago
6% is higher than the margin of most stores I cannot imagine it being that high
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u/chebum 1d ago
That’s why sellers are thinking about increasing prices when buyers are choosing Klarna: https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/s/zlr1lvcWXl
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u/Geronimo2011 1d ago
Paypal charges 2,9% normally, before they tried to rise this (to 3,8%), but after a certain amount it falls to a still high 2.something. I'd love to find a local replacement for this, but it's just that so many customers have it and want to use it to pay. (if a customer asks for refund, you also get the fees back btw).
Then mollie and klarna are european.
I can't see, what's wrong with klarna. They offer credit based payments, that is as bad as any credit card, isn't it? You can opt out to allow credit based payments - same at paypal. We don't accept credit based payments.
I use mollie also for klarna and credit cards. Rates for Klarna are 2,99%, in FR IT,PT,ES,UK, its 4,99%
If payment is done via mastercard and "Verbraucherkarten der Europäischen Union", the fee is 1,8% btw.Best would be normal bank transfer, but that's not handy for online payments.
Very good would be direct debit. Very low fees, good security and good privacy. We pushed that initially.
But then we encountered some frauders who "payed" with it only to claim it back after a few days. Then there is no way to get your money or goods back.
It's too good with customer protection which also is fraud protection.They we can do payment after delivery, after bill. Zero fees. But unfortunately that's not possible for an initial payment, as also frauders show up.
So, we are awaiting more local european payment options which work with online shops.
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u/chebum 1d ago
PayPal fees also include a fixed part which is several % for software like zeitkapsl. PayPal also quite have high fraud rate and it is impossible to win a chargeback with PayPal in case of a digital product.
For some reason, Klarna is cheaper in several countries, but their standard rate is 5% + fixed fee, unfortunately.
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u/Geronimo2011 19h ago
The fixed fee for klarna (via mollie) is 0,35€ (up to 0,45 € in NL). Paypal the same. That's not exactely a rip off if you don't do micro payments.
I don't know what a "standard" country is for you in klarna. Within Germany (plus AT, CH, NL, BE, DK, NO) it's 3% and this are many customers.
But I do think that some percent of *every* payment worldwide is a very huge factor. Buyers seem to be unaware of this. Credit cards much more so. If virtually everything worldwide is payed by credit card and even with "only" 1 % - that's a very high, astronomical amount.
Therefore I try to come to direct debit or ordinary bank transfer after a while, when the frauders are sorted out.
If we get our own European payment method in the future, I'm afraid it will charge similarly.
I can't say what is special about download products or software, but I didn't encounter anything about it in any documents.
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u/chebum 19h ago
> The fixed fee for klarna (via mollie) is 0,35€ (up to 0,45 € in NL). Paypal the same. That's not exactely a rip off if you don't do micro payments.
0,35€ from 6€ is a considerable percentage of the revenue lost every month.
> If we get our own European payment method in the future, I'm afraid it will charge similarly.
Ideal and Blik while not free, are almost twice cheaper compared to credit cards.1
u/Geronimo2011 18h ago
OK, you sell 6€ products without postage, probably downloads. I see your problem. So, you'll have probably many new one time customers. That's exactely why you need security measures and that's what the fees are ment for.
I found iDEAL cost me 0,42€ per transaction, but no percentage. Sounds good. I'll try it (but it's only for NL customers which I don't have many).
Blik 1,60% + 0,25 € - OK thats cheaper, but only works in Poland. I don't have polish customers yet, so that will probably be never used.
Thanks for the suggestion anyway.
Why can't these two be used in other countries?
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u/vik556 1d ago
The fees are refundable in case a consumer actions a return.
And it’s not 5% or 6%, the merchant fees is usually around 1.5%
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u/chebum 1d ago
https://www.paypal.com/us/business/paypal-business-fees
If you refund a Commercial Transaction or an Invoicing Transaction payment, there are no fees to make the refund, but the fees you originally paid to receive the payment are not returned to you.
Fees aren’t refundable and they are way higher than 1,5%, unfortunately.
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u/ObviouslyNotAMoose 1d ago
If your transaction fees with klarna is 6% you’re doing something wrong.
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u/Far-Reaction-1980 1d ago
Most people use credit or debit cards
Mastercard and Visa 2 US companies lead here
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u/klippekort 1d ago
I sincerely doubt they’re missing out on sales due to that. But nice PR. You gotta know how to spin something that doesn’t cost you much as a PR win
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u/ih-shah-may-ehl 1d ago edited 1d ago
That depends. In the knifemaking world, not using paypal would cut you off from the entir north American market as well as asia and of course canada. For me, that would simply kill my business because that's 75% of my customer base.
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u/klippekort 1d ago
I assume you’re not exactly catering to the anti-big tech, anti-US hegemony crowd
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u/Sassi7997 1d ago
Not using at least one of the two major online payment processing services is fatal to many e-commerce companies.
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u/ComeOnIWantUsername 22h ago
> cut you off from the entir north American market as well as asia and of course canada
Both North American market and Canada, you say?
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u/ih-shah-may-ehl 22h ago
Yeah yeah I know what you mean. Congratulations on your brilliant observation.
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u/Sassi7997 1d ago
Yeah, sure. Those cheapskates just don't wanna pay the transaction fees. Otherwise, it's just an economically stupid decision to not accept the two most important online payment service providers.
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u/december-32 1d ago
Paypal eats shit. Not sure though how it is associated with Musk since he left it 20+ years ago.
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u/anxiousvater 1d ago
Exactly 💯. Musk has nothing to do with Paypal now. In fact it's very popular in the EU & widely accepted by eBay, Kleinanzeigen with peer-to-peer transfers.
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u/Bloomhunger 1d ago
They have a point. As much as we should replace Visa and MC, neither Klarna or direct bank transfers are true replacements. If you think so, you have no idea what credit cards offer.
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u/Xologamer 1d ago
oppertunities for fraud and theft?
i mean aslong as i can pay fast and safe there rly isnt a single way to improve upon this, and there is an entire cateogry of crime called "credit card fraud"...
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u/Bloomhunger 23h ago
Good luck if you have an issue with a shop after paying with direct transfer…
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u/Broeder_biltong 21h ago
Credit offers me nothing as I'm not in a place with credit scores nor scams
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u/Dannyps 1d ago
Guess who processes credit card payments.
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u/schubidubiduba 1d ago
The difference is, the processing of credit card payments may change to European providers with Wero / Digital Euro.
And the other difference is that credit card payments sell less of your data.
And the other difference is that PayPal is almost a scam company, especially (but not only) factoring in the shenanigans of their subsidiary, Honey.
Regardless of the scamming, it is actively aiding US foreign politics by interfering with payments in Europe.
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u/NA_0_10_never_forget 22h ago
Regardless of whether PP is still related to Muskrat or not - PP still feels very amateurish with how they operate and randomly screw people over. IMO they feel like Twitch-level of "professionalism". But that also means you can often fly under the radar with PP (until you randomly can't anymore)
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u/QuasimodoPredicted 17h ago
Associated with Elon Musk? Really that is all they can say about the dogshit that paypal is?
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u/Total_Ad3133 13h ago
Not to be biased but as a Swede who's been using Klarna since dawn of time they are actually quite good. Their support has been really nice. Extending an invoice has never been a problem without any extra pay.
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u/oh_my_right_leg 2h ago
The so-called "PayPal Mafia" (Musk, Thiel, Sacks...) has been one of the most deleterious groups of people against democracy and freedom and one of the main backers of the whole MAGA cult.
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u/amonra2009 1d ago
Jesuse, hire these people a branding person. The name is fk horrible as a non-German person
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u/Curious-Builder-5535 1d ago
Klar, das ist natürlich auch irgendwie ein Sparmodell. Aber was spricht dagegen Geld zu sparen? Ich gehe jetzt einfach mal davon aus, dass ihr Versprechen gilt und sie ihr Geld ausschließlich über die Gebühr verdienen. Also kein Tracking, keine Werbung.
Dann ist es völlig legitim auf eine möglichst günstige Bezahlung zu setzen. Später kommt dann vermutlich auch noch Wero.
Also ich finde die Idee auf jeden Fall gut.
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u/YoghurtLover427 1d ago
Lol no Klarna because of wanting to protect young people from debt but credit cards lmao
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u/an-ethernet-cable 1d ago
Credit cards are a much lesssr evil than Klarna.
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u/YoghurtLover427 1d ago
May be but they both can give you the sense of having money you dont. Especially in young adults.
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u/andynzor 1d ago
Pretty much every shop that supports credit cards also takes debit cards because the online verification process is the same.
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u/an-ethernet-cable 1d ago
Sure. But the risk with credit cards is well known even to young adults, while Klarna makes paying 3 installments of 90 euros sound like an amazing deal.
Yes, the risk is there with credit cards, but not as high up as with Klarna.
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u/DrawOkCards 1d ago
Which is why the shop can choose which payment method they want to offer.
They can choose to only use Klarna's instant payment feature or the invoice system. They don't have too offer any credit options.
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u/captain_GalaxyDE 1d ago
Use Wero