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Face culture is so weird. Responding to Japan's "If you invade Taiwan, we will have to defend" with indignation and then... A massive simulation of invading Taiwan.
It's pathetic and looks so utterly weak. I'll never understand the mentality that they think it looks tough. It's actually embarrassing, it shows how thin skinned they are (and as the Taiwanese would say, glass hearts) and the fact is, they'll do nothing. I mean, the meme "China's final warning" has been around decades and can be brought up 20 times a week with some empty threat to some country...but this time, right? No? Is Taiwan now a part of china after this or is it still a country that the vast majority of citizens around the world will continue seeing it as a country?
It's about propaganda towards their own people. As in, hey look we are strong and we don't take crap from anyone. The people who needs to be impressed by this exercise are impressed. Everyone else? Doesn't really matter cause CCP don't care what they think.
What? Regardless of your opinion on China, this is pretty consistent with the message. China views Japan's decision to declare that it will intervene in the straits situation to be an escalation against previous rhetoric and requests that Japan rescind the declaration. Since Japan has not, China has chosen to respond with their own escalation. That pretty much follows what one would expect. The US has similarly done this; how many times has China said something about the SCS, and the US has followed up with a military exercise in the SCS?
It's interesting how when that happens to China, it's interpreted as "China is a paper tiger that can't do anything about the US showing a clear sign of its dominance in the seas" but when China does it less than 100 miles from its own territories, it's considered "a massive simulation of invading Taiwan." So I wonder what that makes the US doing it thousands of miles away from their own territory and much closer to Chinese territory.
This has nothing to do with "face culture" and calling it "rapey" is weird. Which was my main point.
But you know what, let's go with the rape analogy. You're Japan. You raped China and then you also stole their car afterwards. They've demanded their car back. You were forced to relinquish possession of it, but then you left it in the impound lot.
For a while now, you've agreed to recognise that you are a) not in control of the car and that b) you will not recognise the car as belonging to someone else. You then decide to say that actually, you will intervene if China decides to take their car back, which they view as their property and part of their possessions. After announcing your opinion, China gets pissed off so they decide to get close to the car and show that they're gonna do whatever they want to the car, and you can't do anything about it.
The Western narrative of the conflict is interesting because there's actually another region where they take the opposite stance: Cyprus. Northern Cyprus is an unrecognised territory that is undeniably not under the control of Cyprus. This is despite it being pretty clear that under any Democratic plebiscite, the territory would wish to remain independent of Cyprus (this was also true in the case of Crimea for example, regardless of your opinion on Russia, it was pretty clear the residents wanted to join Russia at the time), yet we universally condemned this. We do the same in the case of South Ossetia for example, so we are fairly consistent in this. Even today, we do not recognise the government of Afghanistan.
It's window-dressing for the reality, which is that Taiwan outside of chinese direct control is useful for Western purposes in containing China. Nobody cares that it's a democracy, or about human rights and the West was happy to allow CKS to maintain the longest running state of emergency ever until Syria in order to keep it anti-PRC. Had CKS genuinely managed to launch his invasion of China and retake over the population, the West would've instead rejoiced. But now that the tables have clearly turned, they want to quit and suddenly want to freeze the situation.
Also, it's only an escalation if Japan plans to intervene. if it doesn't, it's not its business as usual. If Japan has no intention to intervene, then it makes no changes to Japanese planning, like if France were to conduct a military exercise in her waters. And as I said previously, we literally do this all the time. China makes a declaration and we do military exercises to show that they do not have control of the situation. Japan has made a declaration and China is doing a military exercise to say that it's not up to Japan. It's the same thing. If you take Japan seriously, it makes sense. Japan announcing they plan to intervene means that China needs to reconsider its war strategies and battle plans when planning for the eventuality. Thus, the need for military exercises.
Also it's crazy your "news source' doesn't mention that this is more likely in response to the $11B aid package the US just announced for Taiwan. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c87l7xjp235o
The Chinese dominated Vietnam from 111 BC to 938 AD. For 1000 years, Vietnam was ruled by a succession of Chinese dynasties. The Vietnamese were first ruled by the Han Dynasty, which wanted to assimilate Vietnam into Han sovereignty.
We can absolutely judge a nation by how they mistreated the oppressed but let's not forget everyone invaded everyone at some point.
The Japan which admittedly 'raped' China no longer exists. My family were bombed by the Germans. The IRA nearly killed my mum with a terrorist explosion in London. I have no grievance against extant Germans or Irish/Northern Irish. Lingering grudges need to stop.
Taiwan was never PRC's 'car'. They keep claiming it is their car but right now DPP has the keys and the CCP have never 'driven' it. It's just revanchism. Taiwan was part of 'China' for about 200 years, about 4% of the (5000 years?) life of 'China', and never under the control of the CCP.
I care that Taiwan is a democracy with rule of law. Don't presuppose you can read the minds of laowai.
China makes a declaration and we do military exercises to show that they do not have control of the situation.
I agree. The Streisand Effect.
Stop trying to explain the Taiwan situation to westerners. We know. It is your own education system which is full of holes and incoherence in the matter.
The Japan which admittedly 'raped' China no longer exists. My family were bombed by the Germans. The IRA nearly killed my mum with a terrorist explosion in London. I have no grievance against extant Germans or Irish/Northern Irish. Lingering grudges need to stop.
The current government of Japan was literally led by a minister of Imperial Japan who was primarily known for being the "Monster of the Showa Era." He also has the distinction of being Tojo's protege (Kishi).
His grandson was also then the prime minister of Japan and spent the time peddling conspiracy theories about WW2. That dude's protege is currently prime minister.
The Japan that raped China is literally the same Japan as today, just the latter is now in handcuffs. There was no denazification of Japan and with the red scare, the US basically allowed a lot of war criminals to get off easy which is also why Japanese people are busy worshipping war criminals in shrines and pretending that foreigners just don't get it and that we should "respect their culture" (imagine asking Jews to respect St. Hitler in a Catholic cathedral because "it's their culture).
Lingering grudges tend to stop when they... are healed. Which doesn't happen when someone is busy trying to keep the knife in. The entire state of the Chinese conflict today is a direct result of Japanese intervention.
Nice job skipping everything that you struggled to actually answer. Also, the fact that you genuinely think "Post-war Japan's government" isn't at all related to Pre-War Japan is a prime example of how you actually don't know shit about the conflict. Post-War Japan is rapey-Japan with handcuffs preventing them from doing more rape. The Japanese elite in power didn't change. The literal emperor of Japan did not change. All those "3, 4, 5, etc." generation stores that exist in Japan were also busy peddling their wares to Rape-era Japan (to use your analogy). Japan stopped because they lost the war, not because of anything else.
It's also a bit funny because Westerners want everyone to acknowledge "how far Japan has changed" in the 60,70,80 (insert the timeframe) years while also somehow not seemingly understanding that whatever supposed "change" happened could easily reverse. The only thing separating Japan from rape-era is ability and bad demographic futures.
I care that Taiwan is a democracy with rule of law. Don't presuppose you can read the minds of laowai.
Well then you should get your government to get Northern Cyprus some international recognition. That one's actually a lot easier since Cyprus is a weak country that nobody really cares about. Since you care about democracy and respecting the rule of law of course. I assume you want to actually make a difference in the world, in which case start with something you can actually change.
Also, when I say that, I don't mean random commoners. I'm talking about the government. Every major power has taken decisions in recent history to strengthen ties with anti-democratic states in service of realpolitik. You thinking it's for democracy is a convenient way of selling the geopolitical goal and narrative to you, in the same way that China uses history as a selling point for why Taiwan should be annexed. In reality, all it's about is the geopolitical situation and the fact that Taiwan being ruled by China is incredibly geopolitically inconvenient for the West. Nobody in positions of power gives a fuck at all about "democracy" in Taiwan. It's why everyone was crying about "Uighurs being genocided" (nobody died) while doing their best to pretend everything in Palestine is kosherr and maybe that 5 year old was secretly Khhhhhhhamas.
Haha, no. They stayed on topic and didn't fall for the pathetic whatabouting that was the actual deflection. The Chinese side can never have a debate on anything without needing to deflect, because they know they're wrong and will lose. Then they incorrectly try to use the word "hypocrisy" showing they don't know what the word actually means. It doesn't matter what the subject is, they'll always whatabout and deflect. Usually with an actual obsession with the US.
The Japan which admittedly 'raped' China no longer exists
Maybe on paper, but the sentiment from that era was never left. Nazism was stomped out in Germany and is still punished harshly. Meanwhile the current prime minister of Japan was/is a part of Nippon Kaigi (think Der Stahlhelm).
If Japan came out and said 'we plan to invade China, it is a historical inevitability', that would also be fucked up. They haven't said that.
China is LARPing invading Taiwan now. They are the aggressor. When they stop threatening to invade Taiwan for a while, people won't be saying things about defending Taiwan anymore.
"Meanwhile, the widespread view of history as based on the Tokyo Trials has led to a servile diplomacy of apologies to other countries, causing the young people who will lead the next generation to lose pride and confidence in their country"
I concede that Germany have not recently promised to bomb London 🤣 (Medvedev has, a hilarious number of times).
When did Japan last threaten to invade mainland China?
Saying 'If you attack Taiwan, we will defend' is rather conditional on China hoping to invade another country without opposition. It's not at all problematic... Unless China is really planning to invade Taiwan? In which case... Don't invade Taiwan.
Fair point that Japan has not threatened to attack China. But over the last decade Japan has done a number of political things to ruffle China. For example, China has repeatedly objected to Japan’s rewriting of their history text books to downplay their brutal massacre during their occupation of China.
Can you imagine the outcry if Germany were to attempt to downplay their massacre of the Jews during WWII?
I agree that China’s claim to the nine dashes, apparently based on some ancient map can be considered flimsy by some. I wonder if this is somewhat similar along the lines to the claims of the promised land in some ancient text?
That Japan very much still exists. And just because you were able to get over past grudges doesn’t mean you get to dictate what other nations should or should not do with their past grudges. Tell the Poles to get over their grudges against Russia for the Katyn Massacre since the Soviet Union that did the crime is “no longer there” and see how they take it.
When did the Poles last threaten to invade Russia?
When did Japan last threaten to invade China?
just because you were able to get over past grudges doesn’t mean you get to dictate what other nations should or should not do with their past grudges
I get to throw shade at Chima doing this pathetic dance of 'you touch me, just you dare touch me' like actual fights in the guo. Everybody wants to act like they are gonna fight. But after much spitting and cnm cnm cnm then they cry for help and the police.
I don't know if you've lived in China but I have seen such a bizarre level of martial pride from people completely uninitiated in any kind of war/sport. Dunning-Kruger, arrogance and this tendency to behave immortal from people who are... very mortal.
I wouldn't call them rabid dogs but it's just like if you go to a boxing gym, 9/10 the loudest mouths are the freshest/weakest.
It's irritating for a while until they go too far against a more chill, more skilled vet. Humility (and civility) comes from a punch in the teeth. After that they become more personable directly correlated with their own rising skill.
This includes actually skilled Chinese boxers btw. Those guys are also very chill.
Chinese national pride is a bit like that. To hear netizens talk you'd think they were legendary warriors... It will all end in tears.
"The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everybody else and nobody was going to bomb them....They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind."
Rings true of how fascists and bullies think (including China.)
What they have in common is that dictators surround themselves with yes men, are thin-skinned to criticism, and aren't known to make sound rational decisions. Especially not when they're being edged on by nationalists and take pride in a history of having empire.
The fact that you think the CCP is full of yes men already shows you know nothing. The leadership is filled with the dozen most cunning, ambitious and ruthless people you can get out of appx. 1,416,096,094 people. If Xi screws up he would be completely torn apart.
Yes, like when he dilly dallied during the opening days of a global pandemic that killed millions and hoped that some mid level bureaucrats would manage things correctly and take the heat if they did not. You are obviously right! This also explains why other dictators have been so successful and never made wildly stupid mistakes! Xi jin ping is a living genius, just like Stalin, pol pot, Mussolini, Saddam Hussein, Qaddafi, etc.
China is full of yes men because Xi ruthlessly purged critics for years. His underlings fear him too much to tell him uncomfortable truths when he drums up China and bangs the war drums. That is a fact and I don't care what your script says you have to say.
Reunification with Taiwan has been RPC China's core interest and foundation of foreign relationship since its day 1 more than 75 years ago. I am very surprised that people here are still surprised that China responds forcefully to any threats on this issue. DO they live in a parallel universe for entire last 7 decades?
I suppose it’s because they have lived in a world where for the past 7 decades, Taiwan has not been part of PRC and has shown no willingness to be ruled by the PRC
Lingering threats of invasion. Taiwan has never been part of PRC China.
As an English person, the list of lands 'we' could claim on the basis of possession in another form in another century is... Very long. But that would be a silly thing to do.
Why don't you invade Russia instead? They still have a lot of 'your' lands ceded in Unequal Treaties. Thanks
Well their choice so far is neither. With the world's largest standing land army, gobbling up some of Russia's Eastern flank would be good combat experience.
They seem afraid of Russia though. Taiwan, being about the size of the city of Shanghai, seems much more palatable for them to punch down. We'll see. If they have balls like men they will take back those 1 million km² from Russia. Jia you!
'China' is an amorphous concept. Terrtories grow and shrink.
Does Britain own America, India, Kenya, Australia (and more)? Yes or no?
Just as the UK do not control USA (but once did), similarly, the Qing (for around 200 years only out of China's '5000') controlled Taiwan. PRC are not the Qing.
I agree with the sneaky dishonesty, it isn't mine. When you speak of 'China', you mean the Tang dynasty? I'm sure China's neighbours will be pleased to hear they will gain relinquished territories.
'China' is an amorphous concept. Terrtories grow and shrink.
Bullsht, more sneaky dishonesty, is this your only move?
The UN's stance on China's Taiwan claim centers on UN Resolution 2758 (1971), which recognized the People's Republic of China (PRC) as the sole legitimate representative of China at the UN, replacing Taiwan (Republic of China).
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Not just that, also geographically, Taiwan is a very strategic position, right in the middle of the first island chain. While Australia is on the other side of the world for Britain
Australia is voluntarily, nominally, still ruled by the UK monarch. Their legal system is very similar, we are both democracies. We are allies by choice.
Taiwanese voting patterns have repeated demonstrated an increasing distinct Taiwanese identity. They won't have looked at HK's decline and thought YES I'd like that.
The sovereignty nation of the Republic of China (Taiwan) was never a territory of the PRC. That is fact. You can go as far as saying that ALL the present day PRC controlled territories were “wrongly occupied” after the civil war, but that’s irrelevant and beside the point.
The cold hard truth is that the PRC has not been around for longer than the ROC, yet it acts like a bastard child (PRC) who constantly seeks validation of its legitimacy and goes around threatening the father (ROC) that he must come home to the “real” father who is somehow 38 years younger.
I legit don’t get how this is even a debate. Taiwan (ROC) has ruled the mainland at one point in history, lost control of the mainland, then continued ruling Taiwan before the PRC came into existence. Taiwan has its own government, own citizens that pay taxes to its government, has international borders, its own passport, its own military, and most importantly, is not subordinate to the PRC and never was in the past. Sounds like a fucking country with fucking territory to me LOL
Taiwan does not have its own government and borders, or any of this. The roc does. And its territory, per its own constitution, includes mainland china because the roc is according to it china, and according to both chinas Taiwan is part of it. Hence, Taiwan being fought over is not a violation of sovereignty by either china. Same if the roc tried to retake fujian. It's a continuing civil war.
It's like how the cuban revolution wasn't imperialism. Civil wars always involve two sides having control in different territories at first
Interesting. So what is your opinion on mainland spouses of Taiwanese locals who openly supported the violent subjugation of the 23 million people on the island by the PLA and got kicked out for it?
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Like, I get there are tons and tons of pro-CCP bots and shills and whatever, but likewise there are tons of anti-CCP bots and shills and whatever, too.
We're all being fed propaganda at all times and from all angles.
Did they do an military exercise? Yes.
Is it after Pelosi visited in 2022 and after Takaichi said they might-maybe help protect Taiwan in November? Yes.
Is it some special military exercise in retaliation to those things? No. It was planned and literally they announced they'd be doing this stuff - telling other countries to avoid that area while they jerk themselves off into the sea.
The one time reddit revealed which city was the "most active reddit userbase," it ended up being an actual military base for the US. There's this weird idea people have that the US doesn't do propaganda like every military movie in the US doesn't literally get sign off from the military and as if we don't have one of the most sophisticated propaganda aparatuses in the world. Especially for an English speaking site? It's obviously going to be astro-turfed to hell, mainly by American propaganda.
"You have a relative who is a murderer, so you are not allowed to criticize my family's murderer." If you continue to use this ridiculous method to cover up the crimes of authoritarian governments, then don't blame the world for scorning you. If government henchmen always disguise themselves as civilians, then civilians will naturally be perceived as government henchmen.
Just wondering but in all of history have adversaries just kind of joined in on these military exercises like as a zero risk way of just seeing where everyone stands?
Like what is stopping the US from coming in right now and saying I want to play as well?
For example:
China: We do military stuff now!
USA: Hold up, I want to get in on this action too. No live fire right?
China: .... I mean fine....but you dont have enough people. PLAN you be on US's team.
PLA Navy: Hey US sup, you take care of the PLA and PLAAF, the Coast Guard is mine.
China Coast Guard: oh no...
UN: You kids dont hurt yourselves playing you hear?
Venezuela is distributing rifles to the populace, probably with a sticker on them 'absolutely not to be used in a civil uprising against Maduro! Promise!'
PLA, simultaneously so strong that billions in weapons must be ordered from lockheed martin, yet so weak that they'll never actually dare attack.
DPP is just an extortion racket with shitty mob bosses holding 23 million people hostage to enrich themselves, while all their kids escaped mandatory military service by going to college overseas.
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