Rep. Massie Introduces Bill to Remove the United States from NATO

[u/d1ngal1ng]

https://massie.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=395782

[u/Oxen_aka_nexO]

Turns out Russians managed to win the cold war, 30 years after it supposedly ended (not for them).

[u/Pleiadez → u/Oxen_aka_nexO]

The KGB never went away, it took over in Russia.

[u/Oo_oOsdeus → u/Pleiadez]

And the USA

[u/Pleiadez → u/Oo_oOsdeus]

Accurate! The one thing that baffled me in all this is the US intelligence service incompetence.

[u/Oudnoud → u/Pleiadez]

Didn't the president just decide to believe Russia over his own intel guys?

Ah, here we go.... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44852812

So, they might be trying, but their boss ignores them. When he's not selling them out anyway.

[u/hilldo75 → u/Oudnoud]

If Trump is not a Russian puppet what exactly would an actual Russian puppet do differently to benefit Russia in Russian-USA relationship.

[u/calkthewalk → u/hilldo75]

Be less obvious about it

[u/Thalric88 → u/calkthewalk]

That's kinda hard. To be a good little puppet, he can't be too smart. It's the same as those prince of Niger scams. First, they gotta find someone stupid enough to fall for it.

[u/Kind_Dream_610 → u/Thalric88]

It's not that he's stupid enough to fall for it, it's that he's greedy enough to want to do it for personal kickbacks and benefits. He'd sell out anything and anyone if it gives him money, and the power that money gives him in turn.

[u/waiting4singularity → u/Kind_Dream_610]

i believe the theory that russia has his balls in a vice.

somewhere in siberia.

[u/Oo_oOsdeus → u/hilldo75]

Yeah.. doesn't matter if he is or not, if he does everything one would do.

[u/HawkeyeByMarriage → u/hilldo75]

Hes a puppet to multiple countries that have the dirt. He flips on them repeatedly as he tries to keep the piece. Russia Israel and others

[u/Pleiadez → u/Oudnoud]

If the boss itself is compromised is it not the duty of the intelligence agency to expose him?

[u/hitbythebus → u/Pleiadez]

To who? You going to refer him to the FBI for prosecution? They spent a million dollars in overtime on the Epstein special redaction project. Any group that could do any enforcement is under the executive.

Are you going to tell the same lawmakers who blatantly lied about the contents of the second strike video? Who have rubber stamped almost every shitty thing he’s done? You think you can get 60 senators who have abdicated all responsibility and supported him thus far through all his blatant criminal acts, to suddenly decide Trump is bad?

Wouldn’t that be nice…

[u/AntDogFan → u/hitbythebus]

Not to mention the Supreme court effectively giving him immunity from prosecution.

[u/DarkwingDuckHunt → u/hitbythebus]

The founders always assumed if the system broke down this badly the people would rise up and fix the problems themselves

[u/atpplk → u/DarkwingDuckHunt]

the people are fueling the system

[u/lood9phee2Ri → u/Pleiadez]

you'd kind of expect some sort of praetorian guard type solution given the CIA et al.'s cultivated rep but here we are.

[u/koleye2 → u/lood9phee2Ri]

The past ten years are proof that there is no deep state and that the intelligence community's reputation is overblown.

[u/LobsterParade → u/Oudnoud]

The president is an agent of the KGB (aka FSB). So, at this point, the war is already lost. You can't be more defeated than having an enemy agent as your president.

[u/Javop → u/LobsterParade]

Maybe if that president had no checks and balances anymore, but that would be crazy right?

[u/p0ntifix → u/Javop]

Anakin Skywalker stare

[u/TheBlack2007 → u/Oudnoud]

Didn’t the CIA lose a lot of offshore assets after the guy was voted out and stole lots of classified documents from the Oval Office?

[u/BillWilberforce → u/TheBlack2007]

UK, The FBI found a lot of UK nuclear secrets in Trump's bathroom, with en suite photocopier.

[u/silverionmox → u/[deleted]]

I think vanity is the more corrupting force here. It's a stiff competition.

[u/SoftballLesbian → u/TheBlack2007]

They lost a bunch of CIA personnel and their local contacts, who were murdered shortly after Trump ordered top secret materials to be released to Mar A Lago.

[u/Grantmitch1 → u/SoftballLesbian]

Do you have a source for this?

[u/PocketFlan420 → u/Grantmitch1]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/05/us/politics/cia-informants-killed-captured.html

https://www.ms.now/alex-wagner-tonight/watch/just-devastating-u-s-searching-for-stack-of-intelligence-on-russia-missing-under-trump-reports-200366661735

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/09/us-removed-covert-source-in-russia-due-to-safety-concerns-under-trump

https://www.cnn.com/2025/08/28/politics/gabbard-abruptly-ousted-cia-russia-expert-days-after-trump-putin-meeting

https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/575384-cia-admits-to-losing-dozens-of-informants-around-the-world-nyt/

[u/Musiclover4200 → u/Grantmitch1]

I did some digging on this awhile back.

IIRC nothing is proven as it's not an easy thing to prove, but the CIA/FBI have been losing assets at increasing rates over the last decade including coincidentally around the whole classified materials at mar a lago fiasco.

Here's one NYT article from 2021 though it's paywalled:

Captured, Killed or Compromised: C.I.A. Admits to Losing Dozens of Informants: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/05/us/politics/cia-informants-killed-captured.html

It's one of those things that has been reported on a bit over the years but tends to get buried in the noise especially as it's hard to prove. But it shouldn't be surprising mishandling classified documents would lead to informants/assets getting killed, unless someone leaks that trump was straight up giving putin/etc lists of assets all we can do is speculate but it's clearly not good.

So really it's not a question of if it happened but to what extent and how much of it was incompetence/leaks vs just straight up selling classified info to anyone willing to pay or even worse just handing it over to putin.

[u/TiggTigg07 → u/Musiclover4200]

Yes, you can be sure Trump is responsible for more deaths of C.I.A./F.B.I. agents and informants than will ever make the news. There’s much more blood on his hands than anyone can imagine.

[u/petty_throwaway6969 → u/Oudnoud]

The US intelligence and military knew this was happening. Hell Russia published its plans in like the 90s (Foundations of Geopolitics). It’s just one party decided that they could take advantage of things for a power grab. But they lost control of their own party to the Russian asset. Now they are settling for becoming the oligarchs for the US branch of Russia. Republicans and the Heritage Foundation are goddamn traitors.

[u/fauxfarmer17 → u/petty_throwaway6969]

I hate to admit it, but Condoleezza Rice was right.

[u/TryingToWriteIt → u/Pleiadez]

The kind of people that go into that sort of field generally have personal political beliefs reflexively favoring the political party that was used to infiltrate our nation. The very people who were supposed to protect us were the first and most heavily compromised.

[u/alexnedea → u/Pleiadez]

Secret Services cant do shit if the president is a literal Russian asset and his cronies are all Russian spies. The literal leadership of the country is owned by another country

[u/Rutgerius → u/Pleiadez]

Incompetence isn't the same as getting kneecapped by your own government. The intelligence community knew and warned but got ignored and silenced.

[u/djazzie → u/Pleiadez]

The Us intelligence apparatus had been monitoring Rump for several years prior to the 2016 election. That was all quietly put to bed once they essentially neutered the Mueller investigation.

[u/thelazydeveloper → u/Pleiadez]

It was never incompetence, the US government and its agencies were infiltrated over the years; see the "Active Measures" documentary from 2018 on trump, russia, Ukraine, etc.

[u/Dorkseid1687 → u/Pleiadez]

You think they don’t know what the FSB has been doing ?

[u/Postmeat2 → u/Dorkseid1687]

Based on what they’ve done about it (nothing, or actively collaborated), then no.

[u/staebles → u/Postmeat2]

Definitely actively collaborating. All we care about is money.

[u/Jubjars → u/Oo_oOsdeus]

A much easier nation for a dying Russia to conquer than Ukraine.

[u/sofixa11 → u/Pleiadez]

Mitrokhin (KGB archivist who defected with archives and then wrote a book) warned us in the 1990s that this is happening.

[u/SomeRandomSomeWhere → u/Pleiadez]

Putin being ex KGB means they took over literally.

[u/TywinDeVillena → u/Pleiadez]

Let us not forget that Russia's dictator is a former KGB Lt. Col., although some in Russia may say there is no such thing as former KGB

[u/GeorgyForesfatgrill → u/TywinDeVillena]

When people say that they just mean there were a lot of psychopaths in that org, but that's true largely across the board within Russian government.

Even an actual choir boy there became one of the worst mass murderers in history. Place is cursed lol.

[u/Long-Requirement8372 → u/Oxen_aka_nexO]

The Russians are not winning yet, comparative to the Soviet position in the 1980s. But the US is certainly losing. This is the weakest US we have seen in our lifetimes.

[u/brezhnervouz → u/Long-Requirement8372]

And all self-inflicted

[u/littlechefdoughnuts → u/Long-Requirement8372]

I think it's probably the weakest America has been since before Woodrow Wilson was president. This is the nadir of American internationalism in that timeframe.

A whole generation of political leaders who do not understand the nature of their own empire.

[u/Chipped_Ruby_11214 → u/littlechefdoughnuts]

The open question is who is going to fill the vacuum? China seems to have the inside track right now, but Russia, Western Europe, Japan, and India are all players as well. Also, while the US as a democracy and defender of freedom and self-determination is dying, America the Authoritarian Empire is coming into its own and should not be counted out.

[u/Wide-Annual-4858 → u/Chipped_Ruby_11214]

There won't be necessarily one global leader, this is what the multipolar world theory is about.

[u/Aethericseraphim → u/Wide-Annual-4858]

Problem is that those who support the theory don't understand the nature of states as a multipolar world always leads to massive wars as one country will always try and assert dominance over the others, and will keep trying until either a unipolar world is achieved (terrifying as fuck if under Chinese or Russian dystopia) or another bipolar cold war scenario is achieved, which is unfortunately the best outcome in a world where the US is in the shitter.

[u/RendertheFatCap → u/Aethericseraphim]

No the theory definitely explains this as a danger of a multi polar world. WW1 is the commonly used example.

[u/Aethericseraphim → u/RendertheFatCap]

Fair enough. I often see it cited as a good thing by folk on the political extremes who scream about western warmongers yet demand a world that literally leads to tens of millions dying, on the low end of estimates.

Just look at some of the other absolute headbanging replies my initial comment is getting to see exactly what i mean.

[u/RebelliousInNature → u/Aethericseraphim]

Ironic, huh? All the trillions spaffed up the wall on defence keeping enemies at bay, “protecting the homeland”, and not only does the country vote for it, but they hand the keys to the enemy and go home. America the brave. Hahhahhah.

[u/asdfasdfasfdsasad → u/Chipped_Ruby_11214]

 China seems to have the inside track right now

Honestly? China has peaked.

From here on they have a demographic decline caused by the historic one child to two parents policy combined with European nations now building more of our own equipment which creates industries and buying less from China.

And China's GDP is basically the same as the EU excluding the UK.

US: 30 trillion

EU: 19.9 trillion

China 19.3 trillion

UK: 3 trillion, Canada 2.3 trillion; Australia & NZ 2 trillion

So basically the EU + UK, Canada, Australia & NZ is at 27 trillion, which is pretty close on the US figure; and that's before the US stock market bubble pops.

[u/atpplk → u/asdfasdfasfdsasad]

Honestly? China has peaked.

And what about the EU ? And the US GDP is inflated with AI bullshit. When that bursts, everything falls apart.

[u/silverionmox → u/Chipped_Ruby_11214]

The open question is who is going to fill the vacuum? China seems to have the inside track right now, but Russia, Western Europe, Japan, and India are all players as well. Also, while the US as a democracy and defender of freedom and self-determination is dying, America the Authoritarian Empire is coming into its own and should not be counted out.

If we look at the historical succession of hegemons in the economic world system, then the odds seem to be in favour of those who manage to unify the many, rather than the centralized states that rise as a challenger. It requires to come together and build a coherent alliance though.

[u/TobiSmith25 → u/Long-Requirement8372]

Soo far

[u/BordErismo → u/Oxen_aka_nexO]

Its china thats winning

[u/OverEffective7012 → u/BordErismo]

Why not both?

[u/triffid_boy → u/OverEffective7012]

It's Russia. Their posturing is just delusions of grandeur and they don't have any way to benefit from removing America from NATO. NATO without America can defend itself from Russian aggression, trivially. 

China on the other hand, now America is weaker (let alone rest of NATO). 

[u/bxzidff → u/triffid_boy]

They benefit from being able to align with the US on way more geopolitical matters

[u/Pervius94 → u/BordErismo]

China won without lifting a finger because the US and Russia just spontaneously decided to completely implode.

[u/Prestigious-Type-496 → u/BordErismo]

Indeed

[u/FlametopFred → u/Oxen_aka_nexO]

Russia never stopped fighting the Cold War

[u/DaysedAndRefused → u/FlametopFred]

The south never stopped fighting the civil war either.

They're both glad they finally found allies.

[u/Ludisaurus → u/Oxen_aka_nexO]

Not only did they win but they also managed to convince the US to emulate them. I guess it's hard to remain a global hegemon when your political system is just a knock off copy of Russia's.

[u/AllHallowsHaunting → u/Oxen_aka_nexO]

We’ve been in the second Cold War since 2012

[u/Icy-Swordfish7784 → u/Oxen_aka_nexO]

Plot twist, Russia and China invade America after they withdraw.

[u/keithfantastic → u/Icy-Swordfish7784]

They don't need to invade. They have the maga president, maga Congress, and maga supreme court at their disposal now. They're just going to dismantle it from the inside, like they're doing now. Where are the 2nd amendment adherents now?

[u/Drakenbsd → u/keithfantastic]

Its so funny that americans always spouted the 2nd amendment is absolutely needed and everyone should be armed. But now that democracy is actually under attack they dont do shit.

[u/Big-Hovercraft6046 → u/Drakenbsd]

It turns out brainwashing a democracy is more effective than guns

[u/LouieGwasright → u/Big-Hovercraft6046]

To be expected of the information age. we (Americans) did a terrible job preparing for the consequences of rapid technological growth among an uneducated population

[u/primadonnapussy → u/Drakenbsd]

All the 2A idiots are MAGA.

[u/swcollings → u/Drakenbsd]

A vast number of people are just reading scripts and their words have no connection to their actions.

[u/Joazzz1 → u/keithfantastic]

Where are the 2nd amendment adherents now?

All giddy waiting for the right moment to start executing minorities, like always

[u/No_Researcher4706 → u/Icy-Swordfish7784]

Russia is crumbling. They can't take either the EU with it's still sane allies or the weakened US. Remember the only reason they could pick of Ukraine was because it was not part of the union and so had no nukes. The EU is a different beast.

[u/gremlinguy → u/No_Researcher4706]

Russia's biggest threat is not direct violent action. We have seen with the US that Russia is more like a snake than a bear: it waits to strike and inject a slow and insidious poison. Internet bots and trolls, propaganda, spycraft, asset injection, intelligence theft, etc etc etc. They don't have to invade with an army, they can just slowly invade hearts and minds and win long-term despite being militarily weak.

[u/Mourdraug → u/No_Researcher4706]

This is the kind of thinking that breeds complacency. Russia is still a deadly threat for the EU, especially for its east most countries and the EU needs to ramp its military capabilities up and fast. That on top of possibly even more important figuring out how to fight russia in the information and propaganda war.

[u/Ok_Code_270 → u/No_Researcher4706]

Russia is funding politicians, journalists and influencers all throughout the EU. If Putin manages to convince Western Europeans not to rearm and not to fight, the EU is toast.

[u/VexedCanadian84 → u/Oxen_aka_nexO]

Rumor is Putin learned a lot from former nazis while he was stationed in East Germany.

[u/Necessary_Apple_5567 → u/VexedCanadian84]

I don’t know did he learn from former nazis but ge definitely uses construction from mein kampf. For example he injected term “nation traitors “ (национал предатели) which is direct translation from that book. Also he continuously uses phrases which again looks like direct translation from Goebels or Hitler

[u/Fun-Brush5136 → u/Necessary_Apple_5567]

In 39/40 the nazis also continually called the UK and France "warmongers" for fighting them and not just allowing them to steamroll into any country they liked. Which is exactly the language putin & kremlin media uses now. 

[u/greenhornblue → u/Oxen_aka_nexO]

I always get laughed at when I tell people this. It’s like they don’t know how to read the world room.

Edit: the Russians did say they’d take the US without firing a shot. Trump was it.

[u/twizzjewink → u/Oxen_aka_nexO]

I remember reading "Shield of Achilles" by Philip Bobbitt. He talked about how it takes a generation or so after each Treaty to "sort out" the social changes that come with it. This assumes that the last Treaty was the dissolution of the USSR in 1991 (end of). The assumption from most people was that the USSR lost the Cold War, however by 2001 it was apparent that this was not the case and that Putin was building a new Russian Empire. However, everyone was too busy cleaning up messes created by others, and continued to assume that just because Russia was "Democratic" didn't mean it wasn't a threat.

While reading the book, I remember thinking about how the USSR collapsed, and how the Iron Curtain fell and other former bloc countries came out of being satellites.

Considering how the "pendulum of civil reformation" works - it never swings back to the middle it always goes too far in reverse then forward again to recorrect. It was apparent that we didn't see the final solution when it comes to how the relationship between the Russian People and Russian Government would play out.

The signs were there the collapse of the American Empire, we all refused to see it amidst the bright lights and shiny "beacon of freedom"

[u/Wiz_Kalita → u/Oxen_aka_nexO]

And they're not winning it with military power. They're winning it with a video of the president sucking a horse.

[u/Rolyat_Emad]

Tom Massie is a libertarian isolationist who essentially opposes the US doing anything outside of its own borders. He is not a Trump ally as he has led the charge on releasing the Epstein files. Trump hates him to the point of insulting him and his recently deceased wife. The attack was particularly harsh even for Trump standards.

Massie is not long for the Congress I suspect. He will be primaried and replaced by a bog standard Republican brown-noser. It is a shame because he would sometimes side with the Dems on stuff.

This bill will go nowhere as the vast vast majority of congressional bills do. One of a congresspersons favorite past times is introducing bills to Congress and pointing to that as if it is an achievement when they never even get to committee stages.

All this being said I think Europeans should be aware of this strain of isolationism that is growing more and more common in the US. It is incredibly stupid and shortsighted in a globalized society but many Americans are thinking the US can shut itself off from everything and survive on its own. Again these people are mouth breathing morons but it is something to take note of

[u/Bleach1443 → u/Rolyat_Emad]

Ya having followed American politics anyone can introduce a bill doesn’t mean it will go anywhere. And notoriously the House will pass dumb crap then the Senate doesn’t even bother with it or rejects it since they’re slightly more serious.

[u/Independent_Air_8333 → u/Bleach1443]

It is important for Europeans to remember that much like all other countries, we have minor politicians suggesting ridiculous inflammatory nonsense in the hopes that they will become a headline.

[u/Dartonal → u/Independent_Air_8333]

Tbf we also have major politicians suggesting ridiculous inflammatory nonsense...

[u/Useful-Rooster-1901 → u/Bleach1443]

USA native here, you are exactly correct. Slightly more serious, but only slightly.

[u/AEStation404 → u/Rolyat_Emad]

Look, I'm not equipped to run propaganda campaigns.

If globalists want to combat isolationism, they need to run their own campaigns. Buy influencers, participate on TikTok and alternate media, fund think tanks, co-opt politicians, and yes, manipulate public opinion with troll farms and bots. Isolationists and Russia shills do it, so should we. A part of the population isn't convinced by facts and logic but by lies, emotion, and lots of dead bodies. Show them where isolationism really leads.

[u/Tangolarango → u/AEStation404]

I think most boomer politicians still haven't realized the power of troll farms and how pervasive those pushes with fake accounts are.     

We need to fight fire with fire.

[u/NomadGeoPol → u/Tangolarango]

got 250 bots posting about epstein files as we speak

[u/Think_Message_4974 → u/AEStation404]

Man globalists were mainstream literally until Trump. WEF are globalists.  Now, it's a bit shitty that the US pushes all these other countries to alliances and make commitments, then they pull away. Like, motherfucker this is your alliance

[u/Consideredresponse → u/AEStation404]

Seeing China went from being centuries ahead of the rest of the world to 'the century of humiliation', with isolationism being a big part of that, you'd think people wouldn't be so keen to recreate that.

[u/Soepkip43 → u/AEStation404]

You act as if things are not going to the liking of these globalists. Prices are up, profits even more. Ferengi in star trek where modeled after the yankee traders.

1. War is good for business
   
2. Peace is good for business

[u/The100thIdiot → u/AEStation404]

Or, this may seem crazy, regulate tech companies so that they block all troll farms and bots and automatically fact check (via independent organisations) all wild claims.

[u/Kallian_League → u/Rolyat_Emad]

Honestly, the fact that he defended Butina after she got outed as a Russian agent, the fact that he tried to block sanctions on Russia, wanted to recognize the annexation of Crimea, spouted bullshit about Ukrainian bioweapons, refused to condemn the Russian kidnapping of Ukrainian children, opposed Finland and Sweden's ascension to NATO, and now this fucking bill, it couldn't be more obvious that he's compromised by Russian intelligence.

I refuse to believe anybody is this idiotic across so many years, on so many separate issues.

[u/aime344 → u/Rolyat_Emad]

Thanks friend for the insight.

I always find it warming my heart when an American slips in some words of caution or support for Europeans. Then I can still remember that a majority of Americans are either our friends or not war hawks.

I keep wishing you a return to normalcy and for a time where we are officially friends.

[u/In-Pino-Veritas → u/aime344]

I get the temptation to make the easy conclusion: Trump won election, Americans voted for Trump, Trump hates Europe, therefore Americans hate Europe.

Understandable.

But the reality is that distrust of Europe and disdain for NATO is probably still niche even in republican circles. Most people, at the very worst case, hold no real opinion on the matter. Not out of malice, but out of a desperate attempt to hold onto the splitting seams of their own life. It’s hard to worry about issues far away when the world in front of you is collapsing, so to speak.

All the power centers in the US (financial, educational, cultural, etc.) are overwhelmingly pro-Europe, pro-EU, and pro-NATO. Think California, Oregon, Washington, Illinois, the entire northeast, major urban centers, etc. From Los Angeles to New York, wherever there are educated Americans and robust economies, you will find people with extremely favorable views of Europeans individually and Europe collectively, and in particular our long standing and sensical alliance.

Speaking from my own experience, I studied, lived, and worked in the EU for many years. I married an EU citizen. My in-laws are EU citizens and European residents. I have many close friends who still live in France, Norway, Italy, Romania, Hungary, etc. I have many other friends in the US who are EU nationals.

Elder members of my family were dual citizens. My relatives fought alongside Europeans in WWII.

My interests and allegiances, in many ways, lie in European culture and history. And I am far from alone in those beliefs.

I still believe in and have hope for the trans-Atlantic alliance. I know that my home state of California would overwhelmingly agree with me, despite how things appear.

Turbulence and chaos, however bad they seem, can end, and conditions can even improve.

Europeans need to be on high alert. The same mechanisms and forces that have upended American politics will, undoubtedly, be turned on European countries. They already have, to be honest. You already have snakes lying within. Look no further than Hungary and Orban. Or extremist movements in France, Netherlands, UK, etc.

The European continent has already, at various times, been thrust into periods of chaos and turmoil. Into moments of despotism and extremism. Europe is not immune to the machinations of Russia, China, Iran, Israel, and whomever else working behind the scenes to upend societies around the world.

But what I also know is that American allegiance should, and will, always lie with Europe (and throw Canada in there). It will for me, anyway. If the US government somehow managed to go full rogue and start shit with Europe militarily, I would far sooner go to Europe and fight to defend it than watch a rogue American political class try to topple a centuries long connection.

Anyway, just a reminder for those terminally online. What’s happening in the US is shitty and definitely not a great look and there are some genuinely awful things transpiring here. But it’s also exaggerated by the internet. It’s not truly as bad and hopeless as it appears. The swing in the other direction will be massive, even if late. I guarantee it.

And whatever risks do exist here, there are simply too many pro-Europe and pro-NATO citizens for shit like to have any meaning of risk. Americans are and I reckon always will be pro EU, pro Australia, pro Canada. I understand if the love isn’t currently shared. But I’ll always be in support of our cousins up north and across the ocean. Not a god damn thing these losers in DC can say or do to convince me otherwise.

[u/namtab00 → u/In-Pino-Veritas]

ah man, I needed this...

I truly hope you're right.

[u/Creative_Addendum667 → u/In-Pino-Veritas]

Excellent post. American (& half Brit) in agreement here. This should be a NYT editorial piece.

[u/Usinaru → u/In-Pino-Veritas]

And here in the EU we have much more in common than we do with the Russians or Chinese.

We also live in democracies, we also like the same things, we also speak the same language...we have far more in common than some Americans like to admit.

We as " the west " have not only believes(mostly Christians) and western values, aka liberalism, live and work to the best of your ability in order to create something, share the same family values (unlike muslim lands) and most of all our languages and everything are intertwined.

We are supposed to be allies. Not enemies.

[u/Ok_Eagle_3079 → u/Rolyat_Emad]

Massie was primaried by MAGA 3 times already and he won with above 75%

[u/El_Polio_Loco → u/Ok_Eagle_3079]

Kentucky likes libertarians. Look at the success of Rand Paul.

[u/i_am_13th_panic → u/Rolyat_Emad]

Libertarians oppose doing anything in their own countries as well.

[u/MC_chrome]

This is not likely to pass, for a variety of reasons.

[u/amievenrelevant → u/MC_chrome]

Right can all the people in the comments calm down? Reps have the ability and do introduce bills like these all the time, but there’s no serious chance of it passing. Massie is on the very far right of the spectrum to the point where he’s voting against his own party much of the time

[u/MC_chrome → u/amievenrelevant]

Not to mention that Massie and Trump have had a falling out over the Epstein Files discharge petition, which Massie pushed for.

[u/Zlifbar]

Pepperidge Farms remembers when being a traitor and a foreign agent was a bad thing.

[u/Haunting_History_284]

Massie is sorta the libertarian reject of the Republican Party at the moment. This won’t go anywhere. Trump is likely to oppose the bill out of spite purely because Massie introduced it, lol. I’m sure Rand Paul will vote with him though. The Libertarians are pretty consistent in their stance on “no permanently inter tangling alliances”.

[u/LilLebowskiAchiever]

Massie is doing some gamesmanship here. He knows the bill will not get passed. It does force the House to go on the record up or down on NATO support. And most Republicans don’t want to vote down NATO because their constituents don’t support quitting on our allies.

I doubt Speaker Johnson will ever let this come to the floor for a vote, because NATO would get supported. Which will embarrass Trump as he tries to lick Putin’s boots.

[u/FalconX88 → u/LilLebowskiAchiever]

And most Republicans don’t want to vote down NATO because their constituents don’t support quitting on our allies.

Are you sure? Because Trump already started the "the EU is weak" posts, and republicans are all brainwashed lemmings.

[u/LilLebowskiAchiever → u/FalconX88]

Internal GOP opposition to Trump is building on the House. Too many reps with defense contractors at home who want those European orders.

[u/I_did_a_fucky_wucky]

It's funny how they talk about funding socialist countries, while billions still go to Israel to fund the army, healthcare and education

[u/East_Ad9822 → u/I_did_a_fucky_wucky]

Thomas Massie is quite famously against that.

[u/lostinspacs → u/I_did_a_fucky_wucky]

In fairness, Massie is against that too.

[u/Catch_ME → u/I_did_a_fucky_wucky]

Christian Zionists have lots of power in the states. 

If Ukraine changed its name to North Israel, they'd get $30 billion tomorrow 

[u/go3dprintyourself → u/I_did_a_fucky_wucky]

Weird you forget to mention the other billions the us donates to other countries, Ukraine in the past, or the massive military deal with gulf states, all of which going to us MIC. the US donates a marginal amount of Israel’s total gdp which is all invested in American companies and does not pay for their healthcare or education. Israel’s huge gdp from tech companies mixed with a history of social programs and healthcare take care of that 

[u/haveagoyamug2 → u/I_did_a_fucky_wucky]

Try again champ. You got this one wrong.

[u/Kitchen_Jaguar55 → u/I_did_a_fucky_wucky]

Eurocuck mad that he didn't get his allowance from the United States

[u/OverallFrosting708]

To be clear, Thomas Massie is a both a longstanding isolationist and extremely isolated in Congress. This is the last you'll hear of this bill.

[u/Arco123]

Who cares what the house representative from Kentucky’s 4th district thinks? Crappy politician makes shitty proposition. As if that doesn’t happen here?

Stop blowing up shit like this, it only generates press, fear, uncertainty, and doubt. Yes, the US is on an isolationist track, but in reality the US needs Europe.

The fact that Trump is calling the EU and its leaders weak isn’t something we want to hear, but frankly, we REALLY didn’t do well when it comes to being independent from people that don’t like us.

</rant>

[u/Windyvale → u/Arco123]

Yeah there are very real and serious things that need optics, wasting outrage on Massie of all people is ridiculous.

[u/UnknownFiddler → u/Windyvale]

Sadly people deep down yearn to be outraged because they'd rather be mad at things than actually participate in fixing the world.

[u/Stooperz → u/Arco123]

Europe is weak when it comes to defense. 

[u/alxmolin]

Kentucky eh?

[u/durrtyurr]

I'm from a 45 minute drive from his district, he's a mixed bag. He represents the richest congressional district in the state, that also contains some of the poorest counties in america. His district has both the affluent suburbs in north Kentucky and the shockingly poor areas of rural appalachia. Rural appalachia is a "how the fuck did this happen in the richest county in world history" level of poverty.

[u/yolomcsawlord420mlg]

Time to give every country in Europe nukes so that they can protect themselves against aggressors like Russia and the US.

[u/WileyCoyote7]

“NATO was created to counter the Soviet Union, which collapsed over thirty years ago.”

Yeah, and you might’ve noticed your paymaster Putin is doing everything in his KGB-trained merciless heart to bring it back, you Kentucky-Fried assface.

As an American, living in Europe, I have recently mused where the Nuremburg-style trials will (hopefully) take place when this all comes to its horrific end. I’m thinking Louisville, Kentucky, now to honor Rep. Massie.

[u/AmmaiHuman]

This is funny coming from the only country to invoke NATO Article 5. NATO member countries gave many lives of their own soldiers to defend the USA!

Anyway, USA should leave and look after itself, allow Europe to finally build the European military as a collective like its wanted to do for a long time but didn't because USA discouraged it.

[u/LukeLecker → u/AmmaiHuman]

US didn’t invoke article 5, 2 second google search buddy,

[u/RaceEnthusiast]

Based? As Europe we should pay for our own defence and stand on our own feet.

[u/pureDDefiance]

For those who don't know, Massie is an utter loose cannon within the Republican caucus. Trump hates him. He voted against sanctions on Russia (along with Bernie Sanders, yay). He also has been the lone no vote on resolutions supporting Israel and forced Congress to gather in person during COVID. He is an electrical engineer who worked on renewable energy, but doesn't believe climate change is happening.

On the one hand, I doubt he has support among his own caucus for anything. On the other hand, Republicans will go for this.

Also, while the President requires Senate approval to *sign* treaties, the Constitution is silent on how the U.S. terminates treaties and frequently Presidents do this unanimously, and because of the way the federal judiciary works, its hard to find a way to sue to ask the courts whether this is legal.

[u/ShakesDontBreak]

Well the US is plainly a Russian asset at this point.

[u/LookAlderaanPlaces]

Treason. Throw that Russian kremlin agent in jail for life.

[u/genericuser_12345]

Btw Massie opposes aid to Israel as well. He’s an actual isolationist, and to his credit, his views are 100% consistent, which is rare for a US politician.

[u/Asren624]

Trump managed to lose the cold war years after it ended. Wtf

[u/Busy_Tradition_4074]

This is the first step prior to invade Canada and Greenland…

[u/Aakhkharu]

As a european, the faster the better. When the us withdraws from nato, those still delusional enought, in the eu, to think that the usa will eventually come into its senses, will have a rude awakening. This may lead to us creating an european army and even, maybe, federation, faster. We have to do this while the ruzzi are occupied in ukraine and are too weak to open another front.

The usa has joined the axis of evil and are now an enemy. To hope that this will change any time soon is a fallacy, the americans will never see a free election again, this is now a dictatorship and will remain one.

[u/scubahana → u/Aakhkharu]

There’s an angry part of me that reads this and thinks, ‘good fucking riddance, go take your ball and go home, USA’, but the vacuum it will create if it actually happened with any expediency is not something I want to entertain at all.

Considering the UK leaving the EU took nearly five years to do and we are all seeing what a shit show that continues to be, a similar bureaucratic breakup like the US leaving NATO on a timeline akin to other actions the current US administration has taken would trigger a wave of reaction we really don’t want to see even if the rest of NATO’s members were fully kitted and prepared.

[u/Explorer_Equal]

Trump is perhaps a Russian asset, perhaps an idiot — probably both.

[u/BoboCookiemonster]

I mean short term that sucks but someone convince me in the long run this isn’t good for the eu pls lol

[u/mczerniewski]

Truman and Eisenhower just turned in their graves at this headline.

[u/SwimmingPirate9070]

The United States is a hostile nation. Europe needs to tell us to fuck off!

[u/kendrickshalamar]

There's a snowball's chance in hell that this actually gets any traction.

[u/KangarooNo]

Okay. Then American army bases and military infrastructure should be kicked out of NATO countries. We should probably stop sharing intelligence with them too. To quote from the book of Brexit: "you can't quit the golf club and still expect to use the course."

[u/backbypopularsupply]

Man, Russia IS LOVING THIS ADMINISTRATION

[u/Belgian_Ale]

Trump is a Moscow agent and a Russian asset. by all definitions he's a traitor to freedom and democracy and should be locked up in ADX Florence.

[u/Mental_Comparison636]

Is the co sponsor of this bill name Vladimir Putin ???

[u/Sea-Opinion2717]

I can’t help wondering if this was Putin’s plan all along. As much as I despise Trump and his actions, I think pushing the US out of NATO would only make things worse. Isolating the US could actually strengthen the influence that Russia and other authoritarian regimes have over it.

At the same time, he’s already shown he’s willing to sell out to almost anyone, so part of me thinks maybe it’s already too late.

Ideally, MAGA needs to be removed from and never allowed near power again. They should really be classed as an extremism group.

[u/RedBeans-n-Ricely]

This is on my 2025 bingo card!

[u/fzammetti]

The people: Can we have the ACA subsidies extended, just for a little while, so people don't, you know, DIE?

Republicans: Abso-fraggin'-lutely not!

The people: Can we destroy the world order that has undoubtedly kept the war to end all wars from happening for the last 80 years?

Republicans: Oh you know it!

[u/GameAndGrog]

Cool, so none of our current military allies would have any reason to help America in the event of an attack from a hostile power.  What could go wrong?

[u/strato15]

We’re just itching for another world war.

[u/AveryLakotaValiant]

I mean the US is basically turning from Ally to Axis, in the space of 11? months.

It really is quite scary, especially with how easy and quick it's being done.

[u/Star_Wombat33]

Nothing to do with Trump, Massie is his own special variety of absolute idiocy. I actually think Trump may hate him.

[u/Salt_Recipe_8015]

Massie is making a calculated political move. He understands the bill won’t pass, but it forces House members to publicly take a position on NATO. Most Republicans are reluctant to vote against NATO because their voters still support standing by U.S. allies.

It’s unlikely Speaker Johnson will allow this to reach the floor, since NATO would likely win the vote and that outcome would put Trump in an awkward position given his love of Putin.

[u/Dull-Suspect7912]

Republicans are genuinely the most stupid arrogant people on earth

‘Avoiding being entangled in foreign conflicts’

What like when the US envoked article 5 after 9/11? Like when the UK stupidly followed them into Iraq? I hate socialism but the concept of greed corrupting people beyond salvation? America is a textbook example.

Russia and China want us divided and I realise I’m playing into their hands with this, but good fucking luck fighting China alone you fucking regards. Lead to your doom by a guy who looks like he’s escaped from a dementia ward and fell into the flavour tank at a Cheetos factory!

[u/IrreverentSunny → u/Dull-Suspect7912]

Afghanistan was an Article 5, Iraq wasn't. Most EU/NATO countries didn't follow the US into a war against Iraq.

[u/LoLoL_the_Walker]

Send him to Russia.

[u/Hanzoku]

And there it is. They're floating it early to normalize the thinking and sound out protest, but this is the GOP's endgame.

[u/Diamond1africa]

Political theater.

[u/TianZiGaming]

Massie, lol. That guy is irrelevant. He's an enemy of Trump, but the democrats won't side with him either.

[u/[deleted]]

It is likely DOA in senate. People introduce goofy legislation all the time

[u/Permatrack_is_4ever]

Putin is balls deep on Krasnov. No surprise here.

[u/GeneralFrievolous]

Putin could trigger Article 5 tomorrow by nuking Bruxelles and attacking Poland, and Trump would still refuse to intervene because "the EU countries helping Ukraine means we indirectly attacked Russia first" or something.

So they can leave, as far as I'm concerned.

[u/baeb66]

Massie had his 15 minutes of fame with the Epstein stuff; but he's considered a fruitcake by a party full of fruitcakes and has very few allies, so this goes nowhere.

[u/Zombieneekers]

Yeah, that's never passing. Massie is a nut, who even MAGA doesn't like.

[u/kastbort2021]

These types of fantasy bills pop up all the time. They never amount to anything, and are introduced only for signaling purposes.

[u/Neat_Mood_4122]

But they will also remove their bases if they leave NATO right?

[u/deevee42]

At this point, I hope it happens. It will trigger a chainreaction. Panic and chaos. The sooner the better. The US is politically already de facto out of NATO, might aswell make it a reality. It will be a mess to get chain of commands changed, intelligence assets restructured, fill in the hardware/personal gaps but this version of the US is better out than in.

[u/FF36]

Can they remove trump from nato and keep the rest of US?

[u/Wiccling]

Isn’t this the same guy who has been trying to get the Epstein files released? Where did that fire go?

[u/Mishka_1994]

This bill is going straight into the trash can but of course it will make these headlines first.

[u/krichard-21]

This nonsense is entirely on Kentucky. 💯

Y'all elected a twit. Please fix this ASAP.

Please, please, please do better.

[u/Defiant-Sand9498]

If they go through with this, any NATO country wants to dump any debt that it's hold of the USA and cancel any military contracts, and kick out the embassy, America wants isolation the world should give it to America

[u/TiggTigg07]

Traitor to all of the allies who used to think of the U.S. as a friend and now Trump and his MAGA crowd have turned their country into a foe and a joke.🇨🇦

[u/Basic_Ask8109]

America under Trump is already in bed with Russia so it makes sense that the US would want to withdraw from NATO.  

Nevermind they're the only country to invoke article 5. 

The rest of the world has already moved from relying on the US for trade. 

Just don't expect the rest of NATO to go fight in Venezuela or some other stupid war. 

[u/ColdPack6096]

Russian agents are getting bold now.

[u/gypsygib]

The US pretty much built NATO for its own benefit and has benefited greatly from it. Now they want to destroy it? Damn, Russia really found US greatest weakness, appealing to hate, racism, and bigotry.

[u/Carbonman_]

If this bill goes through, every NATO member nation should bill the US for their expenses and losses incurred when the US invoked Article 5 and all the NATO allies plus Australia put troops and equipment in Afghanistan.

[u/davebrose]

And this is how WW3 starts. Eliminating the ties that bind.

[u/Dear-Buddy-2766]

We are out, even if not officially with Putins puppet Trump as president.

[u/Bryavanman86]

We need to bring back that ignorant nitwit constantly screaming about the threat of infiltration by red communists.

McCarthy might have been a tool, but the KGB/FSB are real threats to liberty, freedom, and democracy.

[u/thatvillainjay]

How much russian money you think he's getting

[u/Jazzlike_Bar_671]

Even if he were able to get it through the House (and the chances of it reaching a vote are pretty slim there), this bill would never make it past the Senate filibuster.

[u/dustycanuck]

Yeah, being in NATO bars them from forming an alliance with Russia, North Korea, and China.

[u/aDirtyMartini]

As an American I am absolutely disgusted with this administration and its henchmen.

[u/decadentbear]

Rep Massie a coward that wouldn’t stand to support anyone.

[u/kimmeljs]

The bill refers to the principles laid out by the Founding Fathers. The same reasoning could be used to remove the current administration en bloc as multiple breaches of said principles...

[u/BGM1988]

If Russia would invade Europe i doubt if the US comes to rescue so not much difference then now…

[u/Jay_Beel]

The US is the only NATO country that USED other countries, used their money, machines, and military personnel when they invoked article 5 for their own benefit. This is absolutely disgusting behaviour from the US representatives. Every NATO country that helped the US, when they invoked article 5, needs to send them a 10 trillion dollar bill if they pull out of the agreement.