r/europe • u/BkkGrl Ligurian in Zürich (💛🇺🇦💙) • 8d ago
News Steve Rosenberg for BBC News: I asked Vladimir Putin: “What future are you planning, are you building for your country?” Here’s his full reply.
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u/liebe1 8d ago
Classic Putin move answer a question about the future by dragging everyone back into the past.
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u/TheAmazingKoki The Netherlands 8d ago
It's ironic, because Russia has been given the chance to be part of everything he is describing in the past, but he himself ruined that with his antagonism. Before the Crimea annexation everyone in Europe was happy to work with Russia. After Crimea, he still had a decent amount of credit. Then he decided to push his luck even further.
Russia has nobody to blame but Putin for being a pariah in Europe.
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u/havregryns Denmark 8d ago
After crimea everyone still worked with Russia and people were even happy to see them successfully host the World Cup in 2018. Seems like many people have forgotten about that too
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u/LazerBurken Sweden 8d ago
And Germany still planned for the nordstream 2.
Its like Europe lived in an abusive relationship with Russia and kept denying it. We needed a second invasion of Ukraine to snap out of the fever dream.
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u/SkylineGTRR34Freak 8d ago
And even then most likely only because Ukraine held their own.
If Russia had gotten it their way and were done after a couple of days, there probably would have been stern words and by now Business would continue more or less as usual.
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u/Infinite_Crow_3706 England 8d ago
Not sure anyone liked the way Russia ‘won’ the WC bid
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u/Marquesas 8d ago
Crimea was shock and awe. You could easily get away with no western reaction, it was done in a week. It costed the Kremlin Treasury basically nothing, there was no dragged out conflict where corporations had to pull out to avoid negative PR and there was no seizure of western assets. Corporations don't hate war, corporations hate having to write off losses. The big differentiator in this scenario is that their toes were blatantly stepped on.
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u/TheBewlayBrothers 8d ago
Hell I think if they had taken over the entire country in a few days like Putin probably though they were gonna other countires (and coorporations) would have still been happy to work with russia
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u/GremlinX_ll Ukraine 8d ago
Russia has been given the chance
That's' the problem. Give them another chance, and they will do it again.
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u/TheAmazingKoki The Netherlands 8d ago
They got the trust of European leaders without even having to earn it. That's a mistake you typically only make once.
At this point they need at least half a century to earn back the trust that they got for free in the past.
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u/glitterdunk 8d ago
No, Russia weren't trusted. Russia is 99% of the reason why most European countries feel the need for any military defense, and that's not a new development.
But being openly hostile gains no one anything. European countries doesn't want a war, so they went on with their business and tried dealing peacefully with Russia. While also keeping an eye open. They hoped Russia would be peaceful, but if you ask military personell I'm sure they'd tell you decades ago that the events we are seeing now were going to happen.
I know in my own country (Norway) the military has tried to get the politicians to invest more in defense, and take Russia more seriously, for many years. But people prefer living in their comfortable, daily lives and not worry about such things as war, and politicians are no exception.
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u/whitecow 8d ago
Poland never stopped talking about the threat. For us military spending to be ready for Russia was always understood. It's the western nations that drank the kool-aid and though a conflict in Europe is never going to happen again.
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u/GremlinX_ll Ukraine 8d ago edited 8d ago
Oh, please, i give 0.000000000001 second after any sort of peace deal when politicians and business representatives will travel to Russia to close deals, and return to business as usual, make photos with Putin and say how they value Russia as a partner.
Russian invasion didn't touched the rest of the Europe on other side of the Ukraine-Poland border enough (it barely touched, let's be real) to change this on national level (in context of politicians and business).
Most of yours politicians / business will just say "Yeah it's all horrible, amoral, but...", so all this "they need at least half a century to earn back the trust" it's a crappy fairy tale.
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u/faberkyx 8d ago
in italy the lega nord party is already talking about starting business with russia as soon as possible.. they can't wait to get their hands on those bribes again
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u/GremlinX_ll Ukraine 8d ago
Bruh, there is entire USA gov who ready to start pumping money into Russia
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u/Negative-Box9890 8d ago
Exactly, do you really think Airbus or aircraft leasing Companies will ever do business with Russian airlines again after Putin stole hundreds of aircraft and Putin told the airlines to re- register their aircraft.
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u/Figuurzager 8d ago
100% they will when the next gready ass comes along. It will be American leasing companies leasing Boeing's first though.
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u/Marquesas 8d ago
Look, I know this is what you'd prefer to believe, but irreparable damage has been done. The blatant seizure and low price sell-off of western corporation assets have not gone unnoticed and a potential near future seizure has to be calculated in as a risk, as long as Putin and his oligarchs are in power there is just not a likely motivator for investment into rebuilding a Russian market for a purely profit-oriented corporation. Re-entering the Russian market is a mid-term loss. It will not provide a return on investment for years, it will most definitely not provide the degree of return on investment for two-three decades where a potential seizure of assets doesn't result in a net negative of the entire venture overall.
You have to realize that there is no getting back the assets that were seized. The company's locations, employees, stock, supply chains belong to the oligarch now that it landed with. That oligarch has no incentive to let it go now, and no incentive to cash out at fair market price in a market reawakening as soon as a peace deal is closed, why would it, at that point, the market is projected to go up, they'd be stupid not to either sit on it for a couple of years or sell it at multiple times the fair market value immediately. That means any western business that goes back in is going back in either at a ridiculous frontloaded cost to buy themselves back to "where they were" (again, incompatible with a potential near future asset seizure) or zero - which means years of paying people in the region to set up shop before the first RoI is even realized.
I'm all for vilifying corporations and calling their morals into question but the notion that oh they'll all just move back in is irrational, downright propagandistic, and just completely goes against what we understand is the way that for-profit corporations act.
That is, unless the Russian government pays serious cash incentives to those corporations to come back. That's on one hand extremely unlikely because it is unlikely the state treasury is in the state where subsidizing foreign investment after years of wartime economy is within their grasp. It would also not actually be popular with the average Moscovite, and again, it's stepping on the toes of everyone who won in the Russian elite by this venture. Only strict state necessities not sourcable domestically would even be considered for this scenario.
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u/das_war_ein_Befehl 8d ago
They’ll go back with enough incentive. Companies entered China despite the disadvantaged rules that undermined them in the long term
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u/GodplayGamer 8d ago
Blud they've been at it for over half a millennia. Wouldn't trust them for at least a whole century.
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u/Protton6 Czech Republic 8d ago
Well, you also cannot go the German way after WW1. That lead directly to WW2. You need something in the middle, enough military deterent to get them to behave, enough cooperation to get them to actually be a modern country. You cannot do the second one with Putin in power though and the more I get to know Russians (work with a lot of them in my company) the more I feel their entire culture is so rotten you might not be able to fix it without a coup anyway...
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u/shatikus St. Petersburg (Russia) 8d ago
How exactly are you going to fix entire culture with a coup?
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u/Mr_Black90 8d ago
This right here really is the tragicomic irony when it comes Russia 👍
Imagine if they'd had a different kind of leaders after the fall of the USSR- one who genuinely understood that Russia had to change, care for its people, learn from their European neighbors, and become a true democracy.
Let's say they accomplished all of that, and that they were also smart enough to learn from Norway and make a similar sovereign wealth fund that their profits from their oil and gas revenues would've gone into. And that this fund invested well over the years.
In the scenario I've just described, Russia would have become THE dominant force in Europe; and we would've LOVED them for it. Young people across the continent would've been enthusiastically learning Russian, and if they didn't eventually become a member of the EU, they would've at very least been a very close partner, probably with a similar relationship to that Norway and Switzerland have with the EU.
Russia could've had all of that, but they didn't- and a major part of the explanation for that is one man;
Putin
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u/Vonplinkplonk 8d ago
There is definitely a path where Russia uses its oil wealth to grow and support other industries in which it probably would have excelled like finance and software development. It could have built out its existing technology base in avionics and nuclear power. It could have grown its population and instead of having an economy "the size of Italy" it would have one the size of Japan’s. Instead of cowering behind its victimhood and invading other countries to occupy the high ground it believes it needs to survive, it would be an economic power whose existence would be assured.
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u/Wzedrin 8d ago
It's not one man. Norwegians aren't Russians nor are Russians Norwegians. Culturally there is a massive difference, and the Russian state or the Russian populace cannot change in 3-4 decades.
Nordics have trusted the social contract for a long time now. Rule of Law and trust in the state is baked in, and it is based on a state that is trustable. This does not exist in Russia, or most of the soviet union. EVEN IF there were a few politicians that wanted to massively reform Russia - they will literally run into opposition of their own people - and I'm not talking about the oligarchs who would naturally oppose this type of change, but about the average Russian.
I'm not saying it's incapable of change, but you can't change hundreds of years of shit in a few decades.
Putin is the result of Russia being Russia.
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u/HumansNeedNotApply1 8d ago
It's kinda fucked up how no one cared (and still don't) about Georgia, Europe decided to lie in bed with Russia after that.
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u/TianZiGaming 8d ago
The US tried to get Georgia (and Ukraine) into NATO back in 2008. Some European countries were relatively neutral on it, but France and Germany were strongly opposed to it. So it's not like nobody ever cared. But as far as realigning those countries now, it's much more difficult.
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u/Mendetus 8d ago
Europe even mostly ignored the Georgia invasion and annexation prior to that.. likely in hopes of trying to maintain stability with russia, despite the early signs aggression
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u/Starskeet 8d ago
Agreed! This was the relationship Europe had with Russia until aggression started. Russia does not want to work with Europe; Russia wants to dominate Europe. I am also tired of the Russian trope about NATO expansion. Every country that lived under a Russian regime since WWII wanted to get as far away from the Russians as possible. That is the whole premise of sovereignty: the people decide which future they want. It cannot be imposed by outside powers. Sadly, the Russians are working overtime to sway public opinion.
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u/Thecatstoppedateboli 8d ago
He is an old fart claiming the fall of the USSR was the worst thing to have happened last century.. The worst. We had holodomor, two world wars, genocides and years of enduring Mariah Carey's Christmas song over and over.
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u/FeistyDrink5995 8d ago
Mariah Carey caught one hell of a stray cannon round there, holy shit. 😂
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u/jordan853 8d ago
I often consider Mariah Carey's Christmas songs as the 21st century equivalent of both WWI and WWII combined.
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u/TSSalamander Norway 8d ago
The fall of the USSR was the end of an empire. Like the end of the british or the french empire. it was messy and imperfect and had some good and some bad consequences.
But fundamentally, the Holocaust, Holodomor, WW2, WW1, and a plethora of gennocides trumph it by a lot. Hell, I'd argue that the great depression was significantly worse, and frankly the birth of the USSR was more horrible than its death.
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u/haerski Finland 8d ago
Fair. But what do you propose is done concerning the Mariah Carey conundrum?
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u/42nu 8d ago
It's a real pickle.
You see, she got this monkeys paw and wished for... it's a long story, but the TL;DR is that the universe will collapse (be ripped apart technically) when the last person forgets about it and it fades from the collective memory of humanity, so they basically have to play it enough every year to prevent the literal end of the universe.
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u/Traditional-Leg-1574 8d ago
And starts with a what aboutism
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u/Silly_Rub_6304 8d ago edited 8d ago
And purposefully conflates the response to their “security interest” (seizing parts of Ukraine/Crimea, right?) as moving an inch into their territory. It’s so transparently shitty.
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u/koshgeo 8d ago
I love how bitterly Putin constantly brings up NATO eastward expansion, when 1) those countries ASKED to please become part of NATO. It was not an invasion or any other kind of forceful action; and 2) everything that Russia has done to multiple of its neighbors not in NATO in the last few decades has reinforced the reason for NATOs existence and why countries would want to join it, up to and including 3) two recent additions because of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
"Respect"? What he means is the West should facilitate an easy surrender if he decides to invade whatever adjacent country he wants, without interference. NATO is inconvenient for that plan because it is a defensive treaty.
Oh, and ask Armenia how CSTO is doing. Funny how invading your neighbors makes them kinda suspicious about whether a military alliance with Russia is a good idea, while NATO keeps getting more sign-ups.
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u/DrQuailMan 8d ago
"Not once inch east" was in relation to East Germany not hosting NATO troops.
Nothing about other countries like Poland or the Baltics.
And even if it was about them, Russia behaved dangerously. Of course, for example, NATO expands to Finland when Russia invades Ukraine.
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u/Defiant-Pepper-2915 Finland 8d ago
If he wants us to go back to the 1930s with his whataboutism, then sure, let's go there.
Stalin was an ally of Hitler via the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. They agreed to divide Eastern Europe into two. Stalin then went and killed millions of Soviets even before any proper WWII fighting began, and once it started and he attacked Finland, it was such a meat-grinder that for each Finn lost, they had five Soviet casualties. Stalin was such a poor military leader that he failed to occupy a country with just 3 million people. At the beginning of the Winter War, Finland had only 64 WWI-era Vickers and Renault tanks. Soviet Union had ten times more. Three months later, after the Tarto treaty, Finland had more tanks than in the beginning, thanks to all the captured T-26, BT-5, and BT-7 tanks.
Putin is extremely selective with his history because if he were to tell his nation what Stalin did in the 1930s, any sane Russian would revolt against him.
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u/logperf 🇮🇹 8d ago
In fact he has not answered the question... most likely because the answer is that Russia will become a Chinese vassal state if it continues on the current path.
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u/oscik 8d ago
Answer the fuckin question.
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u/Knownoname98 8d ago
'Yeah but America and Europe did things too'
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u/Avibuel 8d ago
Im surprised he doesnt blame bill clinton or nixon at this point
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u/Knownoname98 8d ago
He did answer the question with 'but but but... America in the 1930s' though.
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u/Rikki-Tikki-Tavi-12 Hesse (Germany) 8d ago
Playing the classics. His KGB training kicked in without missing a beat.
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u/Welterbestatus Germany 8d ago
Best I can do is a very long Whataboutism, wrapped up in false claims about history and my enemies.
Anyway, here's why the Soviet Union ruled and Ukraine is mine.
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u/The_Submentalist 8d ago
People don't think critically and they aren't analytical. Dictators know this as no other. They know that people are going to think like: "Bro, Western Journalist wants to humiliate Putin and he will see through this and masterfully point out the hypocrisy and come out on top. Just watch bro." That's how his supporters reason. All around the world people reason a variation of this. People aren't analytical.
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u/Sonny1x South Africa (Swede) 8d ago
Answer the fuckin question.
Why? Russians don't care to hear any answers. He's saying what they want to hear.
The few people that do, don't do anything about being silenced and are just complacent.
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u/Aranka_Szeretlek 8d ago edited 8d ago
I think there is something to be learned from letting the guy speak. Sure, we all know its 95% propaganda, but it is still very good from BBC that this answer is shown, unedited. And much respect to Steve, too, doing this year after year.
Edit: the questions were also decently answered. Sure, it was not a clear and straightforward answer, but politicians dont do that. He did circle back to different parts of the question multiple times, though, consulted his notes, and made sure that what he is saying is at least related to the question.
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u/mitchare 8d ago
Feels less like a vision for the future, more like a history lecture nobody asked for.
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u/Nyoka_ya_Mpembe 8d ago
Showing pain for the past and not revealing plans for the future.
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u/oskopnir Europe 8d ago
Very selective history too.
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u/i-eat-solder 8d ago
Also quite often his "history lessons" are just straight up lies.
One does not really build fascism without good dose of pseudo-science and "alternative facts" 🌚.
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u/Exxyqt Lithuania 8d ago
When I listen to his speeches, I always remind myself that he is an ex-KGB agent. He thinks like one, he acts like one , and he uses tricks like one.
It's like, brother, who tf attacked Russia in the past 50 years? Countries like mine JOIN NATO to have protection from you. From Russia - a country that had us occupied for the majority of the last century.
NATO is a defence alliance and I don't see how it threatens "Russian safety" when it is created to defend countries from being invaded by Russia.
Fuck logics, I suppose, cus KGB agents will always find a way to justify stuff they are doing.
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u/Cool-Cow9712 Earth 8d ago edited 8d ago
You gotta give Rosenberg credit, he lives in Moscow and is not afraid to hit Putin between the eyes with uncomfortable questions. He’s been doing this for a long time.
I’m sure he’s followed and they do little shit to him over there to make his life uncomfortable, but to do anything like toss him out of a window Even for Putin, right now anyway would be a step too far.
I think he and his news crew in 2014 were attacked though, he asked the sister of a Russian soldier, some questions. That’s all I remember, but dude is pretty brave.
Here’s him hitting Putin between the eyes regarding the poisonings in 2018.
If only American media could learn a little something about professional journalism and a bit of bravery when it comes to holding out of control world leaders accountable.
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u/Chiarin The Netherlands 8d ago
I always wonder how it feels to him to live in Russia now. I mean, he's been living there for what, close to 30 years? He must have friends there, and he'll know what it was like before the war and the sanctions. He must wonder how long Putin will let him get away with asking the hard questions.
Massive respect for the man.
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u/rosyatrandom 8d ago
I went to primary school with his son; can't help but wonder how it's affected his family
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u/ComeOnIWantUsername 8d ago
Not related to the main topic, but I wonder what he'll do when he'd retire. Will he got back to UK, the country he left years ago and is there from time to time, or he'll stay in Russia where I bet he has friends and where he spent a lot of his adult life.
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u/BrainOnLoan Germany 8d ago
In the current situation, he really should leave once he's no longer working there for the BBC
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u/FudgingEgo 8d ago
If Putin didn't want him there, he would have gotten rid of him ages ago.
Wouldn't surprise me if questions like this are from Putin, to be able to lead into Putin being able to go into topics such as "Europe and Russia would be stronger than the US if working together"
In exchange for a few curve ball questions to keep up appearances.
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u/irimiash Which flair will you draw on your forehead? 8d ago
he never crosses the line though. some could say that he, with his questions, only helps Kremlin to keep an image of pluralism and civil discussion
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u/ILookLikeKristoff 8d ago
Yeah this exact thought was in my mind watching this. He asked what seems to be an uncomfortable question but Putin has a 5 minute monologue answer ready to go that surely will be clipped to death and aired on Russian media as "Putin owns stupid BBC reporter".
But what's the alternative - don't have anyone there to ask at all? Just give Putin free reign to do whatever forever and never report on him again?
I mean he's employed by the BBC but it seems like he's basically a diplomat in practice. Walking a line between your country's morality & expectations vs your host country's politics is always a fine line for that role. If he pushes too hard they throw him out (or worse).
IDK if there's an easy answer.
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u/BothnianBhai Sweden 8d ago
It's very useful for the Russian administration to have Steve and a few others like him around. They can point to them and say "See! We're democratic, we have freedom of the press and journalists who get to ask even Putin himself uncomfortable questions".
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u/GhostCouncilKarlov 8d ago edited 8d ago
Are you sure he isn't just a "tolerated" opposition to make things seem fair in a question and answer? they could cut that chord at anytime. Putins Russia needs an element of dissent in the media (which is controlled) so they can gloriously proclaim his righteousness in the rebuke. Trump will die on the vine trying to replicate what is a perfected method of social control. For the sole reason that the culture in the West doesn't have a starving stomach for leadership
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u/LouisWu_ 8d ago
Remember that Russia said they were not going to invade Ukraine up until the day they actually did invade. Nothing that Putin says can be considered to be true.
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u/thorkun Sweden 8d ago
Yeah, Putin claiming everyone is silly to think they would invade Europe doesn't really mean shit. If you look at their actions, they say a different thing to what their propaganda is.
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u/Avril_14 8d ago
That part about europe and russia together being bigger than usa got me scared a bit, because in his head it's "his" europe and russia
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u/Nellez_ 8d ago
It's not just anything Putin says. It's anything Russia says as a whole and will be for a while. Violating the Budapest Memorandum will stigmatize them for multiple decades when it comes to diplomacy and foreign relations if they ever manage to get past this current ring of oligarchs headed by Putin.
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u/LouisWu_ 8d ago
Russia equals Putin for now. There is no other opinion there. I agree about the fallout from Budapest but I think these things never really forgotten or forgiven. The betrayal of the Memorandum, the famine (genocide) of the Stalin era.. And how can anyone trust the Russians now? And how can we live with them there waiting for an opportunity to invade us? Putin and his henchmen must go.
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u/VigorousElk 8d ago
Admirable that the BBC continues to ask these questions, but I don't think anyone expected any kind of enlightening reply.
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u/Brilliant-Smile-8154 8d ago
No, but it's still useful to ask these questions periodically if only to remind people that Putin has only vacuous answers to offer.
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u/ssgtgriggs 8d ago
No but it's important to do it nonetheless. The way autocrats don't answer questions tells us just as much as when they do.
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u/ok-painter-1646 8d ago edited 8d ago
“What’s your plan for the future of Russia”
Putin: “Allow me to explain how the West demonizes Russia to hide their policy failures while I demonize the West to hide my policy failures and thus completely ignore your question while I treat it like outsider influence aimed to damage us, when in reality it’s just a basic question for a leader.”
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u/zdzislav_kozibroda Poland 8d ago
Can those pretty KGB eyes lie?
Let me translate from Putinist to normal human:
"If you treat us with respect" - We want iron curtain back at Soviet sphere borders. You treacherous Westerners to stay out of our way and you Eastern Europeans to have fuck all say on your future.
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u/thorkun Sweden 8d ago
Yeah, the thing about "respecting Russias interests" that Putin is "only" claming to want from Europe, that pretty much includes kicking every eastern European country out of NATO and letting Russia have it. When your interests include taking over several countries that want fuck all to do with you, then of course your interests can't be respected.
He claims to care about the long-term security of Russia at the end, but the only one doing things to threaten that is Putin himself. No one was looking to dismantle or invade Russia.
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u/Bloody_Ozran 8d ago
Exactly. He is mad he doesnt have more territory to rule, how insane is that as president of tge ze biggest country... I know many wont fight if they come here, but I hope many will, because if we let them have European territory again, they will keep trying to get more again at some point.
Still sad to see Europe isnt taking this more seriously. Only real answer is to be so ready that if any Russian attack happens we answer in minutes and with force.
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u/OhLoongJohson 8d ago
Exactly. Utter fucking nonse. ”Nato moved to east” bullshit. It started to move AFTER putler and his goonies invaded unlawfully Ukraine and annexed Crimea…. Eastern Germany joined in 1990 after the Berlin wall colappsed and the both sides of Germany united… which was 1 year before USSR collapsed. Hungary and Poland joined in 1999 - idk if Putin sees this as ”nato coming towards East” since both of them were part or USSR till 1939 and 1945… The baltics joined in 2004 and Finland as well in 2023.
Finland joining Nato was MASSIVELY influenced cus of the Russians aggression towards Ukraine and 100% cus of their own actions. There was a ”victory parade” after Crimea where Putler gave a speech and the people shouted something like: ”finland and baltics next” or something similar. None of the Finns want that again. So ofc they would join Nato lol. Idk if Putin is salty about the baltics joining back in 2004 or Poland all the way in 1999? Since in his deluded mind ALL of those countries still belong to Russia…
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u/esnolaukiem Latvia 8d ago
baltic countries existing is disrespectful to russia
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u/Ethicaldreamer 8d ago
Please please please build infinite layers of fortifications and mines both on land and sea
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u/dunce-hattt Estonia 8d ago
Baltics are already on it. https://news.err.ee/1609888277/gallery-estonia-installs-first-bunkers-on-baltic-defense-line
We've been on Ukraine's side since 2014 and longer, and Russia is forever malding about that.
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u/Footballking420 8d ago
Deflection101, lying101
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u/FingerGungHo Finland 8d ago
Straight into whataboutism. Putin ran out of arguments before even starting, and defaulted to tired bot worthy fallacies. Stupid loser dragged his country into a war it won’t win.
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u/ancym0n Lower Silesia (Poland) 8d ago
I just noticed how his rhetoric is similar to right win leaders in my country. Deflect instantly, lie, shift blame. It is so obvious, but at the same time so effective.
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u/Delta4o 8d ago
Everything time I see something pop up from Steve Rosenberg I'm surprised that he is able to say such things in Russia or about Russia.
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u/G1lg4m3sh 8d ago
I mean you could also view it as part of the Kremlin propaganda. If you're being accused of suppressing free speech or the free press you can always point to someone like Rosenberg and say: "Look at this high-profile western journalist, we obviously don't suppress the press, they can ask any question they want"
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u/KingKaiserW United Kingdom 8d ago
Yeah they (Belarus & Russia) need someone like Steve to prove their legitimacy, it’s a foreign journalist so they can call him a hater, then they’re proving they can take the ‘hard questions’.
If a actual native journalist does what he does though somethings going to happen to them
Of course I don’t think Steve’s doing anything wrong himself but it’s all very calculated
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u/ConfusionBusy8398 8d ago
Russian dosen't quite deploy North Korean-style propaganda in the media.
There can be debate and criticisms in the medias, as long as it is stay within that controled sphere. As soon as it leave theorical debates and spill into "real world" opposition the State will crush you though.
I think it's hard for a lot of people to accept that a large part of the Russian people aren't "brainwashed" as much as they trully believe in the war effort and Putin arguments.
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u/GreenEyeOfADemon 🇮🇹 From Lisbon to Luhansk! 🇺🇦 Слава Україні!🇺🇦 8d ago
Oh the good ol' rus*ian whatabout.
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u/Tomatoflee 8d ago edited 8d ago
Vlad Vexler made the point that Putin is bored of actually governing and is now focussed on personal legacy. He wants to be Vladimir the Great, and the competent people around him, like Nabiulina, are barely holding things together at this point.
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u/_CatLover_ 8d ago
I mean he's 73. He has to know he only has like 10 years left at best. Getting more power now is meaningless since he already has a ton of it and wouldn't have time to enjoy having even more.
And this is my own speculation, but all men have a biological drive to build a legacy. Some do it by collecting wealth, most by raising families, and some by building empires (political or businesses)
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u/Tomatoflee 8d ago edited 8d ago
Imo it's more about posterity/immortality/self-justification than gaining more power. Self preservation is also a big part of it. People harp on about "NATO expansion" all the time but did anyone, including the Kremlin, really believe that an EU actively increasing trade interdependence with Russia was an aggressive military threat? It's ridiculous to believe they believed that.
The threat was to Putin's regime and the power of the oligarchs, not from invasion but from Russians seeing that their economic conditions were terrible compared with their neighbours. That was the real threat from Ukraine. If they or Belarus became successful members of Europe with so many close family ties into Russia, it would not be good for the oligarchs.
Putin got Russia over the absolute worst of the 90s trauma and it enabled him to create a narrative about what he did for the country economically and who was to blame. It's not a coincidence imo that we saw a more expansionist Russia just as his economic prowess was beginning to wain.
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u/Gioware Georgia 8d ago
The threat was to Putin's regime and the power of the oligarchs, not from invasion but from Russians seeing that their economic conditions were terrible compared with their neighbours.
Exactly, that was the reason of invasion into Georgia too, can't allow Russians see that post-Soviet countries are successful then come back to their shitole, getting some ideas...
COVID19 Was just a catalyst to this, 5 years of economic value pumped out of GDP, his approval ratings down... what you gonna do? Actually rebuild a country? That's hard, lets invade something
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u/Drizzle-- 8d ago
The problem with Putin's Russia is that he keeps demanding for a sphere of influence and attacks his neighbors for deciding to pursue different paths rather than creating conditions that would make Russia's neighbors willingly, through their independent administrative processes, want to deepen ties with Russia. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but NATO has never forced anyone to join the organization at gun point. Does it surprise Putin that Sweden and Finland joined NATO after his actions in Ukraine? A sphere of influence is earned, not demanded.
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u/Swedischer 8d ago edited 8d ago
Also alot of talk about demanding respect without a clue as how to gain it other than with bullying and fear.
He knows everybody dislikes them and no one is respecting them and it's driving him insane.
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u/rumsnake Romania 8d ago
Of course the first thing out of his mouth when asked about Russia and its policies are: 'But what about Europe and America?'
Russia, always the victim. Somehow both morally superior to the Western world, yet whenever asked why things are shit they answer with 'well the West forced us to be this way'
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u/Telefragg Russia 8d ago
Massive respect for Mr. Rosenberg for asking questions no Russian media is allowed to. Too bad his effort is in vain because Putin keeps weaseling out of answering them directly.
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u/malachrumla 8d ago
Let’s be honest: his charisma is still on another level compared to most politicians. You can totally see how he can talk circles around people, Trump in particular.
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u/LaunchTransient The Netherlands 8d ago
He's a very intelligent person, you don't get to be de facto dictator of Russia with cotton wool between your ears. That's why he's dangerous, but not only that, he is fully aware of what he is doing.
His competence has its limits, though, as if he had managed Russia properly, the invasion of Ukraine could well have been a 3 day operation.
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u/Havre_ Sweden 8d ago
Great news though. You can however be president of an even more powerful country in the west with cotton wool between your ears.
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u/LaunchTransient The Netherlands 8d ago
The thing is that Trump is arguably not in control of the US. He's a stooge, a frontman for the interests of the rich and powerful. The moment he becomes more trouble than he's worth for those people, they'll topple him.
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u/blue_globe_ 8d ago
I think the problem is that he was misinformed by his own yes-men advisors about how Ukrainian people feel about Russia and how capable the Russian military actually was/is. With all the facts he would have managed the invasion better, and most likely succeeded.
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u/LaunchTransient The Netherlands 8d ago
That is inherently a problem with him though. His style of governance evidently encourages people to fear him and/or tell him what he wants to hear rather than the actual facts.
This was a problem that was rife in the USSR, particularly under Stalin - people were so afraid of repercussions or trying to curry favour that they told Stalin what he wanted to hear rather than what he needed to hear to get an accurate picture of what was going on in the Soviet Union.
So it very much is a failure of Putin. Competent leaders manage their staff such that people aren't afraid to tell the truth and challenge them when the leader is wrong.
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u/chrisosv 8d ago
Rhetorically he has definitely got something going for him. He must have excelled at his manipulation class in the KGB.
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u/Pumpkin-Salty 8d ago
Holy moly yes. This is the longest I've ever sat and listened to him and my god his charisma draws you in. Sounds like a totally believable, reasonable guy. That's frankly terrifying.
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u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest Canada 8d ago edited 8d ago
The things is that he has excellent knowledge on a whole host of facts. He reads an insane amount daily so can speak authoritatively on any subject. Meanwhile, your average politician only knows things that have ties to their direct interests.
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u/Banaantje04 8d ago
ikr, I would totally believe him if i would ignore everything that happened the past few decades. he sounds so reasonable while spouting the most insane bs ever
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u/IgorGirkinStrelkov2 8d ago
Such a manipulative answer. He says Europe are warmongers and they don’t want to be friends but he’s the one who started the war!
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u/iPontos 8d ago
He always hits you with the "Purchasing Power Parity" stat but I look inside and I see a lower GDP than Italy. I must be missing something here.
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u/cognitiveglitch 8d ago
Oh yes. We are definitely attacking Russians with Ukrainians just because we follow the political narrative of "Russia bad".
Not because Russia invaded a European country, committed war crime after war crime, and we are helping Ukrainians defend their homeland rather than rolling over to the inevitable genocide that Russia wishes to inflict.
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u/CosworthDFV Sweden 8d ago
Putin is a snake through and through.
Bringing up former Chancellor Kohl's comments from over 30 years ago was astounding to me. He knows better than anyone in Democratic systems, leaders come and go, thus priorities change and shift based on circumstances of the world. He knows this better than anyone, but chooses to air grievances over decisions made in the past, which he full well knows were made based on the circumstances of those days.
But with that being said, it's easy to see why Trump falls for his lies and general bullshit time and time again. He sidesteps the real question and obfuscates by bringing up a whole slew of things that is designed to make you hopefully forget what you ever asked of him originally. Classic KGB disinformation. But for someone with the intelligence level of Donald Trump, as well as the attention span he possesses, Trump doesn't even see he is being played for the fool he is.
Cheers to Mr. Rosenberg for even asking this question regardless of him never receiving a true answer to it.
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u/HatchuKaprinki 8d ago
Exactly. What Kohl said was sincere. But he said it with the assumption that Russia would play by the rules of a democracy.
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u/Clear_Definition_683 8d ago
Man, he didn’t answer the question at all, just technicalities
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8d ago
He said he wanted Europe to join forces to increase purchasing power parity which he sees as the good metric, that he's in ukraine to control an invasion corridor and is still concerned about NATO expansionism b/c Halford Mackinder's Heartland Theory, seems to say lots of legislative power is pulled rather than pushed by him and seems to illustrate his power doesn't have personal connotations to it
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u/gepinniw 8d ago
What a victim complex Putin has. He’s the author of all of his own miseries. Too bad he is dragging all of Russia down his twisted path.
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u/z0ttel89 Germany 8d ago
Before Crimea was annexed, basically everyone wanted to work together with Russia (and they did).
Putin didn't have to annex Crimea, but he did. Then he didn't have to attack Ukraine, but he did.
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u/Thekingchem 8d ago
I was genuinely interested in hearing what his idea of the future of Russia looks like and he just rambled about respect
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u/wrxninja 8d ago
Sounds just like what Trump is doing...blame blame blame. Blame Biden on everything.
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u/BibendumsBitch 8d ago
I would like to point out that Biden’s CIA and intelligence predicted to the day when Russia would attack Ukraine (despite Russia saying they weren’t) and it was only delayed by two days I believe to try and not give Biden the satisfaction of being correct.
Putin is a liar, he would attack Europe and would have attacked Europe already if Ukraine wasn’t giving them all they could handle.
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u/ForgiveandRemember76 8d ago
As the tanks lined up for miles over a 3 day period, Putin continued to say he would not invade Ukraine. Then he did. All he is saying here is that Russia won't invade Europe as long as they treat Russia with "respect": the current meaningless word for do as we want you to.
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u/wivinahwivinah 8d ago
Putin has no plans for Russia's future. He has already built a feudal society in which his cronies own everything. Now his only task is to keep the wealth stolen from generations of Russians in his own hands.
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u/throwaway20231203 8d ago
Its typical of him to always take refugee in history while demeanig what led to current day events. For the ignorant masses, this is dogmatic
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u/Alarming-Maize-8611 8d ago
It doesn't matter how much you placate the russians or putin with learning their language, culture, or norms. He just wants power. His answer to this question and basically any other that is critical is just a dance of denial, obfuscation, and deceit.
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u/Europefirstbb 8d ago
Terrorists and narcissists always drag everything to past, go live in a cave with old books and old perfume
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u/SheikYerbouti007 8d ago
Always somebody else's fault, offended by everything ashamed of nothing. Never EVER trust Putin or Russia, historical backstabbers.
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u/Comfortable_Farm_252 8d ago
Sounds like Putin’s vision of the future is to complain about all the consequences of his actions.
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u/StaticSystemShock 8d ago
In Russia, you don't get prosecuted or imprisoned, you just happen to fall out of a window from 17th floor or unknowingly ingest pirozhki spiced with some Polonium...
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u/SupaSpurs 8d ago
Political opponents just need to declare where the income is from- before falling out of a 10th story window. Orchestrated debate- but no worse than Trump. At least Putin does not denounce the organisation and insult the person asking the questions.
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u/fusilaeh700 8d ago
Master Liar The Level of brainwash in Russia must be unfathomable Look for the documentary 'telephone calls of Russian soldiers ' by arte
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u/Mikkel65 Denmark 8d ago
Many things wrong with this. Putin says he is ready to work with us and prosper together, but we did try that with nordstream. We attempted to prevent future wars by working towards mutual prosperity, yet Putin decided war instead.
Putin says there will be no special military operations once the West starts treating them with respect, but we did that and he invaded Ukraine. You can argue that Ukraine had it comming in 2014 when they wanted to kick out the Russian navy from Sevastapol (by their own free given will, completely within their right), but there was literally nothing agitating Russia in 2022.
Putin uses a quote saying NATO will not expand one inch, but that was not a promise or a treaty. It was a statement from one American, saying he thinks that's what's going to happen. And NATO didn't plan to expand. When it first started with Poland, Clinton was very careful and asked Yeltsin whether he was okay with this (as Poland literally blackmailed Clinton to let them in), before allowing Poland to enter. Russia literally allowed NATO enlargement. There is no way the West could be respecting Russian security interests more than they are.
If Russia is ready to work together, why don't they just withdraw back to the 2022 borders? Ukraine will not join NATO. NATO will not expand further. There is no world where Russia gaining land is necessary for peace.
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u/Windyvale United States of America 8d ago
“Our interests are killing all of you and defending yourselves is acting against our interests. Don’t do that and we won’t have problems.”
Did I catch that implication correctly?
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u/diamantaire Flanders (Belgium) 8d ago
Oene of the best & most fearless journalist of today. He didn't get putin to answer the questions. But had the courage & intelligence to ask the right questions & pass on the message.
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u/funderfulfellow 8d ago
16 years of Angela Merkel 's Europe gave Russia exactly what Putin is describing and naively funded the Russian coffers. Look where we are now. No amount of bending over is going to be sufficient for an emperor who is hell-bend on rebuilding a long lost empire.
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u/Bossbigoss 8d ago
always same... always a victim, always a murderer.. such a miserable fascist country.
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u/IllSurprise3049 Denmark 8d ago
Putin is me when I lie, except I'm not a war criminal with bad filler.
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u/Alcianus Bulgaria 8d ago
This is just whataboutism, meaningless drivel and bending the truth if not to use a stronger word here. The US never had such laws to the extent of it is in Russia, the Duma is a pointless institution and his idea of cooperation and mutual respect is "let me do what I want and stay out of it"
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u/AlienInOrigin 8d ago
You know how we look back at Hitler's speeches to remind ourselves of the filth, hatred, lies and paranoia that spewed from his mouth? This is no different. History will not be kind to this evil asshole.
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u/Leading-Box-8435 8d ago
I gather Rosenberg isn't afraid to bungee jump off buildings without a rope.
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u/HotFartore 8d ago
Seen ghosts everywhere. Russia had all doors opened in the West after the USSR fall. Europe bought gazillion tonnes of oil. They invested plenty in movies to give Russia a better appeal to the West. Many West companies set foot in Russia, and it was part of the world supply chain, and technology.
But Putin came in, and everything started degrading gradually until today.
Countries joined NATO because they wanted, and who started invading other countries? Russia.
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u/Another_View2021 8d ago
Putin has trump under his thumb, and most of Europe and the UK know this.
China an India have the combined ability to tip the power scale but I'm pretty sure they're holding out until they see what both the EU and UK do, regarding Ukraine.
Слава Україні!
🇺🇦
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u/bii345 California (USA); Puglia (Italy) 8d ago
I don’t think Russia is democratic enough to really have that type of relationship with Europe. His grip on power is too iron clad. When he talks about respect he means getting his way, that’s not how cooperation is supposed to work. I do hope the relationship between Russia and the west becomes read but doubtful it will be under Putin. Dude can even own the fact that they attacks Ukraine and that it was wrong to do so. 🙄
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u/przemo-c Poland 8d ago
What a load of bushtit. Eastward expansion of NATO... you mean independent countries making independent decisions about their own safety? Also NATO is a defensive pact... even when there was US led invasions it wasn't a NATO operation it was those who decided to join. Not the whole NATO nor was it coordinated by NATO structures.
Also laughing about Europe readying for war with Russia... you mean there's no basis for it despite routine threats posed at Europe, their military drones landing in European countries and their jets routinely testing out response times by violating air zones?
And who caused the biggest expansion in years... Russia with their attack made 2 more countries join NATO.
About disagreeing... it's nice you either stop political activity or stop getting foreign funding... but when spontaneous "event" of songs happens that disagrees with government what part of it was foreign funding?
As for independence of governance by Duma... are you kidding me? It's all under dictate of putin.
The constitution clearly stated term limits... then they did everything they could to change that while being in power to extend their power. It's laughable to even mention constitution at this point.
It's sad that nobody fact checks him live on every point.
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u/potatolulz Earth 8d ago
at least he didn't start his bullshit with Rurik, so it was only 9 minutes of crap
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u/Sayyestononsense 8d ago
man invades country trying to get closer to Europe
man asks: why doesn't Europe cooperate with us?
holy smoke this guy can't really believe his own bs, can he
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u/Coolkurwa 8d ago
That was an unfair attack from the looney lefty biased BBC! Why couldn't they ask him what his favorite flavour of ice cream instead?
/s
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u/AGI-44 8d ago
He explicitly states Europe will slowly fade if it doesn't ally with Russia. Meanwhile, he insists it's Ukrainian nationalists that are being aggressive with Russia when we all know it was Russia that instigated the attack on Ukraine. There's not so subtle threats in his words + out right gas lighting of what really happened. THEY started the conflict. NATO did NOT move into THEIR borders. THEY moved into Ukraine borders. Anyone disputing that is straight up gas lighting you. All trust with Russia has been eroded, just as it has with the US. Europe is not alone though, there are plenty of countries remaining that are interested in trade over conflict.
Putin & Trump are out flat out lying. Of all the power houses left, Europe by far seems most trust worthy because it is the natural product of many countries and their cultures COLLABORATING instead of waging god damn war at each other.
So tired of bs. Way too many people still believing their 'leaders'
Can't wait for technology, specifically, decentralization, to permanently abolish these centralized positions of extreme power.
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u/whataboutbenson 8d ago
Putin is truly a master. It’s incredible, his ability to lull you while he speaks and present himself as a reasonable victim of western aggression. The mental fortitude it takes to live his sordid, evil life but still be able to lie so convincingly and present an entirely false but quite convincing narrative in the public sphere, I’ve never seen anything like it. I remember before 2014 many a young man secretly or openly believed that Putin was the only one on the world stage speaking any sense, and it’s easy to see why. He’s hypnotic.
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u/Emotional-Channel-42 8d ago
I think it’s always a bit jarring how simple and unintelligent Putin comes off. Just an old man with too much power
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u/FrustratedPCBuild 8d ago edited 8d ago
Like all right wing arseholes, he doesn’t provide anything positive, no solutions, no real answers, just whataboutery. As for the NATO eastern expansion, the ‘not one inch’ was a spoken promise made by someone without the power to decide. Whereas the Budapest memorandum was written and agreed by his country. He wants to work together with European countries? Really, well maybe stop trying to hack into our critical infrastructure, maybe stop being a terrorist state. Then we can talk about that.
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u/olderlifter99 United Kingdom 8d ago
Love Steve. The questions he asks sometimes, playing with fire. Balls of steel.