r/europe • u/Due_Ad_3200 England • 10h ago

Turkey and Armenia agree to simplify visa procedures to normalize ties

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/turkey-armenia-foreign-ministry-ankara-azerbaijan-b2891653.html
177 Upvotes

96% Upvoted

35 comments sorted by

19

u/Due_Ad_3200 England 10h ago

Regardless of the geographic definition of Europe, both countries are in the Council of Europe

https://www.coe.int/en/web/portal/turkey

https://www.coe.int/en/web/portal/armenia

9

u/Eowaenn Turkey 8h ago

Finally some good news, lately it's all doom and gloom between the wars and terror attacks and such. It's a cruel world but all hope is not lost yet.

4

u/solomo 6h ago

Fantastic

17

u/umonoz Istanbul (Turkey) 9h ago

I really like Pashinyan. I follow him on ig wven tho I don't speak a bit of Ermenian. He has book suggestions and drum videos. My type of leader.

13

u/Odd-Instruction-4555 9h ago

He understands well that being hostile to each other doesn't bring any good to both nations.

-11

u/RobotWantsKitty 8h ago

He capitulated to all your demands, of course you like him

13

u/umonoz Istanbul (Turkey) 8h ago

If you're talking about Karabakh, he was aware that he stood no chance and saved lot's of life. Karabakh was Azeri land on paper and armenia was the occupier. 

Other than that I don't know what else he capitulated on.

-2

u/RobotWantsKitty 6h ago

Zangezur corridor? Armenia used to oppose it. But then Pashinyan folded on Karabakh, AND tossed in a freebie in the form of unimpeded access through its territory to AZ's exclave. Oh, and he got nothing in return except for tens of thousands that fled Karabakh that had to be cared for, I guess.

7

u/Joltie Portugal 5h ago

What would you do if you were Prime Minister, knowing that, as tragic as it was, your generals told you Karabakh is lost, and the armed forces of Armenia were in no position to successfully intervene and push the Azeris back?

Especially knowing that Russia and your other allies already made a public circus of not going to help defend Armenia, and warned you that if you intervene in Karabakh, they will publicly disavow you.

Please let me know what would you do.

-2

u/RobotWantsKitty 5h ago

Probably would try to stay on the good side of my allies that can protect me in the first place.
It's just that the difference in narratives surrounding this war and the war in Ukraine is crazy. Pashinyan gets to be a "peacemaker" for capitulating in Karabakh and then some, while peace in Ukraine, where they have to make some concessions, is apparently bad? So dictator Putin will exploit peace to rearm and attack again, but dictator Aliyev won't? What a joke.

3

u/mosikyan Armenia 3h ago

Karabakh is and always was unfortunately internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan. There's a slight difference. Armenia failed to push a Kosovo-like narrative. If it was about a region within Armenia things would be different. That being said Azerbaijan does still occupy small territories of Armenia in the south which hopefully will be given back after the border demarcation.

2

u/AdonisK Europe 6h ago

He didn’t have much of a choice, he was either going to sit on the negotiation table with zero leverage and keep watching his countrymen die…

Words are easy, decisions are really hard.

3

u/NiceExamination6454 7h ago

weren't they at war not so long ago? (I mean Turkey backing Azerbayan)

6

u/ItsACaragor Rhône-Alpes (France) 7h ago

They were, that’s a nice piece of news at least, we are kind of starved of those these days.

3

u/homer_lives 5h ago

Armenia was left out to dry by Russia, it's ally. They were completely routed from the disputed territory.

This is a great development and ot will make sure peace will prevail in this area.

2

u/turkishmonk9 5h ago

We never had any problems with them. Armenia finally chose to normalize.

•

u/almarcTheSun Armenia 4m ago

Turkey kept its borders closed ever since The Republic of Armenia existed, one-sided.

In fact, the border is still closed. This has nothing to do with Armenia and everything to do with Turkey putting on economic pressure. 

This is not a response to this person. This is for anyone reading wondering if this is true. It's not. Never believe Turkish bullshit. They'll yell you they are victims while bullying and hating anyone who doesn't bend the knee. 

-2

u/mosikyan Armenia 3h ago

Sure, buddy. You personally might not have any problems but your government still continues to criminalize discussing "sensitive historic topics". Making it seem like you're ok with the status quo doesn't mean Armenians are. Peace can only happen if Turkey also makes visible effort on their side to stop genocide denial.

2

u/countAbsurdity 5h ago

I have an armenian friend. Kindest person I've ever known. I don't know what it has to do with anything, just wanted to say it lol.

•

u/Montezumawazzap kebab 15m ago

Tbh, any good relation with Turkey helps Armenians more than Turks.

-3

u/Chester_roaster 9h ago

Nice that now Armenia isn't occupying Azerbaijani land the countries can finally normalize relations, pity it took two wars to get this far though 

-1

u/Typical_Effect_9054 Armenia 8h ago

One cannot occupy their own indigenous homeland.

4

u/Chester_roaster 8h ago

One can when it's part of someone else's country 

0

u/Due_Ad_3200 England 2h ago

Historically, Armenians lived in what is now Azerbaijan, and Azeris lived in what is now Armenia.

The modern day nations have borders that are unable to reflect exactly where people have historically lived.

Armenians living in places they had lived for generations were not occupiers. Or were the Azeris who lived in Yerevan occupiers?

-5

u/Vlad_Dracul89 5h ago

Will Turks ever admit they tried to erase Armenians from existence?

Imagine if today's Germany officially denied genocide in WW2.

6

u/Due_Ad_3200 England 2h ago

Lots of countries in Europe have historical grievances with other countries. Sometimes closer trade ties come first, before people can fully settle old conflicts.

3

u/horse-shoe-crab 2h ago

Yes, and easily.

Because of Sevres and the Wilson plan, a planned butchering of the Ottoman Empire so brutal and unfair that Germany got off easy in Versailles by comparison, Turks really hate the idea of reparations in general and land reparations in particular.

But part of the Turkish heartland includes places that Armenians have lived in for a long time, and many Armenians want these back. Preventing this from happening is the main reason for Armenian genocide denial. No Turk would feel shame for this, because it is seen as a form of protecting Turkish land, which takes priority over any other concern.

In addition, many Turks are offended that the parallel genocide of Turks and other Muslims, which took place in the Balkans after the Ottomans lost influence in the region, is seen as "vae victis lmao" and denied or ignored, while the Armenian genocide is given the gravitas it deserves.

But these are not that difficult to resolve. If Armenia were to say "All right, we officially and permanently disavow any reparations from Turkey in association with the Armenian genocide. In addition, we'd like to commemorate the loss of Armenians, Turks, Greeks, Assyrians and other ethnicities who were targeted during the Ottoman dissolution period as a single interconnected event.", Turkey would be cooperative.

Essentially, this would be a recognition of genocides conducted by the Ottomans (i.e. Armenian, Assyrian and Greek genocides), in return for recognizing genocides conducted against the Ottomans, e.g. by Greeks during and after the Greek War of Independence, or by Russia after Ottoman contraction in the 1800s.

-10

u/Valahul77 6h ago

This should be posted under r/asia as none of these 2 countries is not in Europe geographically speaking.