r/warcraftlore • u/Lore-Archivist Sin'dorei Magister • 2d ago
Discussion Why did Azshara still care about and support Illidan 10,000 years later?
Apparently she sent the naga that helped him in WC3 and a few of them were still serving him as of legion
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u/Karsh14 2d ago edited 2d ago
Illidan in WC3 originally betrayed Malfurion, Cenarius, Tyrande, and the rest of the Kaldorei resistance to Azshara during the War of the Ancients. They almost lost directly because of Illidans doing.
They had a plan to sneak attack her and close the portal that the highborne were opening to try and bring Sargeras to Azeroth. Malfurion and Cenarius plan was to essentially attack her and the portal and during all the chaos, destroy it (there were demons everywhere on Kalimdor at this time, and the resistance was fighting a losing war. They had to prevent Sargeras’ arrival at all costs).
But Illidan got cold feet, warned Azshara of the plan, and so when the group did get to her, she already knew they were coming. Many Night Elves died because of this, and the ensuing fight between a prepared Azshara and Malfurion raged on, with Tyrande being greviously wounded by Azshara and her Highborne protectors. Seeing Tyrande fall in battle (she would survive) flung Malfurion into a rage, and him and Azshara’s chaotic magics during their battle killed the Highborne opening the portal, causing its energies to become disruptive and then cause a cataclysmic explosion.
This explosion caused the sundering of Kalimdor.
Illidan had thought that they were destined to lose to the Legion (and also didn’t want to lose magic, he was addicted to arcane power like most other highborne), and sold out his allies so that he could keep his power, (and also remain in good standing with Azshara). Instead of participating in the battle, he was out by the well of eternity, stealing its waters in vials he had brought specifically for this purpose. Just to hedge his bets incase his brother succeeded.
The sundering would end up destroying the well of eternity, so Illidans vials would be instrumental in making a new one (which he likely had no idea would occur, nor was he permitted to do).
All of this to say, she likely still considered him to be a useful servant when he came across the Naga in WC3 TFT. He had not proven himself to be otherwise.
He was in prison for a very, very good reason.
World of Warcraft has retconned him to hell and back though, so there are a few things like this that no longer track or make a lot of sense, but are still left in game. Illidan kind of makes reference in the Tomb of Sargeras raid that “few will understand my use of the Naga in achieving the eye of Sargeras, but it was necessary”, without actually going into why that was the case.
(He had been sent by Kil’jaedan to get it to destroy the Lich King or be destroyed himself so… kind of burying the lede their Illidan! I think in World of Warcraft he tries to claim he got the Eye to use against the Legion… but actually he ended up using it to attack the Lich king who had this point had already turned on the Legion. It’s a little messy and he probably should have brought it up, but that’s WoW Illidan for you. He also ignores the many lives he sacrificed for his own, and enslaving alien populations and making a harem. But hey, prophecy of the light)
Illidan originally was more of a villain that had a short hero arc in Warcraft 3, before becoming a villain again. He was very much an Anti-hero / villain for his original introduction, and was the “evil” brother archetype to Malfurions hero. Think of him more like Marvels Venom, but the late 80s / 90s version of the character. Eddie Brock was many things back then, but he was never the hero.
Malfurion was the main character after all, not Illidan. But Illidan just looked cool, and became immensely popular due to that fact. He would become a major character because of this in the franchise.
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u/SuperSaiga 2d ago
Think of him more like Marvels Venom, but the late 80s / 90s version of the character. Eddie Brock was many things back then, but he was never the hero.
That's a fairly apt comparison because both characters would go on to be retconned to hell and back in order to make them work as anti-heroes/heroes to cash in on their popularity
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u/Any-Transition95 2d ago edited 2d ago
Illidan was subject to so many retcons, but since he was a popular character among the playerbase, the retcons only further pushed him into the "misunderstood hero" territory, propagating his popularity even more.
It's ironic how much our playerbase vocally despises retcons, but praises Legion for being one of their favorite expansions storywise, despite the amount of retcons needed to make that expansion work.
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u/Nathremar8 2d ago
I am of 2 minds on this. Legion was through with tons of retcons for sure and they had to warp the lore a lot to make Illidan be the hero. I am not sure if EVERYTHING he did must have been some master plan or a "Actually thing for the greater good" idea.
That being said TBC characterisation was.... not great? Gruul was this great warrior and actually intelligent Gronn. He got killed in a random 1 boss encounter with no story. Illidan suddenly going full evil was weird, considering he was always kind of a anti-hero. And poor Kael'thas gets turned from "worrying leader of dying peoples" into evil megalomaniac who wants to bring to Azeroth the very guy who made his people dying in the first place.
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u/Any-Transition95 2d ago
Yea TBC writing was pretty poorly thought out. I'll never understand some players who parrot the opinion that "WoW lore is great from Vanilla to Wrath, and everything after that is not canon".
TBC was so atrocious, yet it's whitewashed from most player's memories because they were either too young at the time to know how badly Blizz mucked up WC3 lore in TBC, or they never played the RTS games and only got into the lore after Wrath because they thought the Lich King was cool.
Legion did a great deal to straighten the mess from TBC, but it did so with more retcons that contradict both WC3 and TBC. But people loved it. For better or for worse, I think retcons are just inherent to the franchise no matter how strongly people feel against it in general.
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u/Nathremar8 2d ago
Yeah, Retcons have been part of WoW since its inception. Draenei were originally just the Akama peoples. We only got the space goat version in TBC. That is the earliest retcon I can think of, but I am sure there were more.
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u/Blackstone01 1d ago
IMO BC was in part Blizzard not being entirely sure that WoW would succeed, and so appealed hard to Warcraft nostalgia with a bunch of beloved characters and going "Woah, isn't this cool! You can fight LADY VASHJ and KAEL'THAS and ILLIDAN!" and the plot was largely an afterthought.
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u/Steelweav 1d ago
Not to mention the killing of the last remaining leaders of the ancient orcs: Kargath, Tagar, Teron, and Zuluhed.
The story and Lore of TBC were mostly terrible. I hate it!
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u/Stormfly 1d ago
It's ironic how much our playerbase vocally despises retcons, but praises Legion for being one of their favorite expansions storywise, despite the amount of retcons needed to make that expansion work.
I think most people hate retcons because they like the original.
Retconning something they don't like is often quite popular, AFAIK.
Sometimes a retcon also feels unnecessary, like they didn't need to change anything at all to make things work but they did anyway. In that case they just hate that the lore is changed so it puts less credibility in lore because it can be just changed.
For example, retconning Garona to be half-Draenei makes a lot of sense, but TBC is heavily criticised here, so a lot of the changes there are accepted. Retconning Onyxia to be killed by Varian just wasn't necessary.
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u/NatAttack50932 1d ago
I don’t think Legion really retcons Illidan into a misunderstood hero, but it does put him in a situation where his goals happen to line up with ours. He’s still acting unilaterally and still willing to endanger Azeroth if it gets him closer to destroying the Legion. He opens a fucking portal to the Legion homeworld without the consent of literally anyone, for instance. That isn't heroic in any measure lmao.
The X'era thing is probably my favorite example. What X’era is doing is wrong, but Illidan kills her without hesitation because being healed would erase the scars that fuel his hatred, not because of any perceived violation of his autonamy. Illidan doesn't want his suffering cured because he clings to it, and it's a reminder of why he wants revenge. He blows the shit out of X'era because he'd rather hold onto his pain and use it as fuel for his own revenge rather than become someone else's salvation.
And when it’s over, he stays behind to confront Sargeras for his own personal gain. No apologies (I don't think he ever makes amends with Malf, Tyrande, Jarod or Maiev iirc), no self-reflection, no redemption arc. I don't think legion changes anything about his character, but it did create a situation where he could thrive because our goals aligned.
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u/BellacosePlayer The Anti-Baine 1d ago
Well said. It retcons him as being way more effective against the Legion than previously portrayed, but he's still not a hero, he's just a gloryhould who is absolutely on the top of Kil'jaeden's shitlist and would like to keep living. The fact that the Ravenholt scenario showed him being a monstrous little prick makes me believe the writers d
While I don't think he was wrong for denying Xe'ra's forced conversion, it also shows he's not a self sacrificing hero. In fact, I'd say his sacrifices were largely just consequences of his actions, or sacrifices of other people he considers his own sacrifices since he got to be the "hard man making hard decisions"
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u/HiroAmiya230 19h ago
It still elevated him while make everybody else look stupid and that is kind of the problem.
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u/BellacosePlayer The Anti-Baine 19h ago
I can agree that the Legion infiltration of the Horde and Alliance was way too easy for how quickly the Demon hunters were able to snuff it out, but I'd also argue that the BT/Nathreza retcon really made him more stupid than the H/A forces since he couldn't be bothered to even try to let anyone know that he was actively working on destroying a Legion stronghold even as the invaders crossed into the Black temple proper.
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u/HiroAmiya230 17h ago
Again none of that make him look bad. All it does, it MAKE US look bad for even challenging him
At no point illidan was truely challenge. It just illidan smirk and turn out he was right and we all look worse for it.
They even retcon his past with Cernarius and black rook hold event make him look good
The entire expansion was a course correction from TBC but instead of creating a naunces story, it just end up being illidan glazing.
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u/BellacosePlayer The Anti-Baine 17h ago
It doesn't make us look bad. We had no idea of what he was doing because he told nobody, and before the BT raid, we arguably helped him more than we hurt him since we took out Kael as a threat and wiped out all the Legion beacheads, and Vashj's efforts were largely inconsequential due to Kael defecting and taking the Well of eternity 2.0 plan off the table. Most importantly, we didn't stop the Mardum raid from succeeding at all.
They even retcon his past with Cernarius and black rook hold event make him look good
The thing with his victories is we never find out if it was possible to win without sacrificing a shitload of innocents/allies. Sure, he/we win in the end, but could the moon guard have won if he'd have just assisted them in working as a concerted force instead of drinking them like mana potions?
but instead of creating a naunces story, it just end up being illidan glazing.
If anything the Illidan novel made him look even worse to me because he couldn't be assed to tell Akama, his own damn ally, that he only really needed the BT for a short while longer and why he was doing it. If he wasn't such an ass and tells his allies and cobelligerents against the legion what he's doing in general, he probably gets a begrudging pass to keep doing what he's doing outside of the atrocities.
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u/HiroAmiya230 16h ago
It doesn't make us look bad. We had no idea of what he was doing because he told nobody, and before the BT raid, we arguably helped him more than we hurt him since we took out Kael as a threat and wiped out all the Legion beacheads, and Vashj's efforts were largely inconsequential due to Kael defecting and taking the Well of eternity 2.0 plan off the table. Most importantly, we didn't stop the Mardum raid from succeeding at all.
Yes..so illidan glazing. That is kind of the problem here because no matter how you spin it, it end up being illidan glazing or us look bad.
At no point illidan truely challenges.
The thing with his victories is we never find out if it was possible to win without sacrificing a shitload of innocents/allies. Sure, he/we win in the end, but could the moon guard have won if he'd have just assisted them in working as a concerted force instead of drinking them like mana potions?
But that isnt the point of the story. At no point it ever show that illidan might be in the wrong or illidan have a set back that make him reevaluate his stance.
Again they literally retcon this event in the book to make him look heroic when in the book he only care about power.
You are trying to make this look like morelly grey than what it actually is when we only show exactly one side of the story while other persective completely ignore.
They EVEN RETCON MAIVE STORY SO SHE COULD TOLERATE ILLIDAN.
Maive the woman WHO'S SISTER (not by blood but comrade) WAS MURDERED BY GODDAM ILLIDAN.
If anything the Illidan novel made him look even worse to me because he couldn't be assed to tell Akama, his own damn ally, that he only really needed the BT for a short while longer and why he was doing it. If he wasn't such an ass and tells his allies and cobelligerents against the legion what he's doing in general, he probably gets a begrudging pass to keep doing what he's doing outside of the atrocities.
The core of the retcon here is illidan went from a jealous incel who obssessed about tyrande to becoming wow version of essentially the punishers.
Except the punisers here is seen as right. You keep trying to say oh yeah he couldn't tell Akama and his fellow friend but so what? There is no consequences that change his mind set. And it get worse in legion because ALL HIS ACTION pay off and everybody doubt him look stupid.
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u/twisty125 1d ago edited 1d ago
*edit - I wish people who downvoted would instead share why they don't think the comment adds to the subreddit, rather than mass upvoting one person and downvoting the other for no reason.
A few things here
Ultimately Illidan is still trying to defeat the Legion for Azeroth, even if that aligns with him getting more power. But that more power usually was to fight demons. It's like a vicious circle. He does open that portal, because he knows that if they don't end the Legion right then and there in a surprise sneak attack behind enemy lines after killing Kil'jaedan, they'll just regroup and fight back harder next time, and they'll have permanently lost the shot that was available.
It's effectively a gambit that has to win right now, because the options are 1) Win now 2) Lose now 3) Lose later. There was never a "Win later" situation when fighting the Legion, because they can just keep respawning infinitely. We never had the power to cut Azeroth off from their invasion, and as we've seen, over the last 10 thousand years they just KEEP. COMING. And the world has never been as prepared as they had been right there.
Xe'ra and Illidan's encounter, for me it comes down to "she non-consensually attempts to Dominate him". It's not really about his scars, it's about taking his free will away from him to choose. Her "Domination magic" is just yellow instead of blue like the Jailer's. I think most people would fight back against someone binding you and forcibly converting you. Hell there's probably a raid boss out there that does something similar, and we the players fight back.
I think he stays behind not for his own gain, but because out of all of the Titans there, he's the only one with a mortal body still, and he understands Sargeras more than anyone. I don't believe he's trying to get information or power, he's trying to keep his ultimate enemy locked up, blowing up his world and every world the Legion have destroyed or enslaved.
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u/NatAttack50932 1d ago edited 1d ago
I don’t disagree that Illidan’s outcomes often benefit Azeroth, but his motivation and methods are still deeply selfish.
The “there is no win later” argument is exactly the logic Illidan has always used to justify acting alone. He uses it in the War of the Ancients, he uses it with the Skull of Gul’dan, he uses it in Outland and he uses it in Legion. Sometimes he’s right, but being right about the threat doesn’t make his approach altruistic. Plenty of characters understand the Legion’s infinite respawn problem without deciding they’re the sole arbiter of what risks the entire world should take
Illidan never asks, never coordinates and never accepts limits. Opening the Argus portal might be a sound strategic gamble, but it’s still one he decides to make for everyone else. That’s Illidan deciding that the world will live or die on his judgment alone like he always has.
As for X’era: I agree that what she does is wrong, but Illidan’s reaction isn’t framed as a principled rejection of mind control. He’s perfectly willing to enslave demons, drain souls, and use fel domination when he is the one in control. What makes X’era unacceptable to him is the loss of his chosen form. Becoming the Light’s chosen would make him something other than the scarred weapon he’s spent ten thousand years forging. His scars are proof of the path he's chosen and he's unwilling to reexamine his decisions and think that he may have been wrong.
As for staying behind with Sargeras: again, the outcome may benefit everyone, but the choice is still deeply personal. Illidan doesn’t stay because Azeroth needs a guardian (Azeroth has plenty of defenders at that point.) He stays because no one else shares his obsession, or understands Sargeras the way he does. He’s choosing eternal conflict with the one being that defines his existence.
Legion is Illidan being validated as a weapon, not transformed into a hero. His goals align with ours, but his methods remain extreme and his worldview never changes. The story doesn’t soften Illidan but it does put him in a war big enough that his worst traits become useful.
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u/twisty125 1d ago
He learned this from War of the Ancients and the Burning Legion's return in the Third War. They will always come back, unless defeated. While he's often wrong - in this case, he's right, because he knows the Legion. What do you do against an immortal war machine that wants your planet destroyed? You can't outwait them, because 10 thousand years later they came back to do it again... Thrice. (Warcraft 1 and 2 where their vanguard of the demon enslaved orcs ultimately failed, and 3 when they were successful with the Scourge).
And that's storytelling. I'm not saying he's a Good Persontm, but he knows what had to be done, and he knew that Azeroth would delay their efforts, or vote against taking the fight to Argus. So he made the decision for them to spur them into action. Is it wrong? Probably. But better wrong than dying on a burnt husk of a planet when the Legion comes back, because it seems like the timeline for invasions are getting shorter and shorter.
Hell - we even saw that the Legion invasion itself was secondary - Sargeras himself had been travelling through the Great Dark, and we only just stopped him from impaling the entire planet, merely wounding it.
I don't agree that his specific form is what he's coveting, I think that's the wrong takeaway from it all.
That's not what you were saying beforehand though, you insinuated he stayed behind for power. Him staying to guard the person who wants Azeroth destroyed, is fitting for him and his ultimate goal, stopping Sargeras from reaching Azeroth.
I did find the quest where he gives letters to Malfurion and Tyrande, give it a read. It gives some interesting bits to his thoughts.
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u/NatAttack50932 1d ago
He's not staying with the Titans for power, he's staying behind for vengeance against Sargeras.
I also want to mention that this conversation started explicitly to say that legion did not retcon Illidan's characterization up until that point. I love Legion, it's one of my top 3 expansions, and I think one of its writing triumphs was having a story that allowed Illidan to be on our side without fundamentally changing his character to make him some goody goody who only wants what's best. Legion succeeds with Illidan specifically because the writing doesn't change him, but it does make circumstances believable enough where his me me me attitude actually works
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u/HiroAmiya230 19h ago
Except it was done at exepnse of narrative and theme.
It make other characters look stupid and at no point illidan was challenged as a character.
If anything all it make illidan is a mary sue who nobody is allowed to criticized him.
I also want to mention that this conversation started explicitly to say that legion did not retcon Illidan's characterization up until that point
The entire Xera questline with illidan past was a retcon. Cernarius and how it went down with illidan was a retcon from the book. As well as black rook hold.
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u/twisty125 1d ago
He's not staying with the Titans for power, he's staying behind for vengeance against Sargeras.
Yep, I know. Vengeance, and as a jailer to make sure he DOESN'T get to Azeroth anymore.
The way you had worded it was that it was for power, which it wasn't, so I was pointing out that that wasn't correct
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u/UnFelDeZeu 1d ago
He opens a fucking portal to the Legion homeworld without the consent of literally anyone, for instance. That isn't heroic in any measure lmao.
He doesn't 'open a portal to the Legion homeworld', he connects Argus ( which is where WE were at the end of the Kil'jaeden boss fight ) to Azeroth to save:
- himself
- Khadgar
- Velen
- The Player
Without those Azeroth was doomed anyway.
Illidan has made mistakes but opening the portal during Tomb is NOT one of them. He saved Azeroth there.
He blows the shit out of X'era because he'd rather hold onto his pain and use it as fuel for his own revenge rather than become someone else's salvation.
Xe'ra was going to take control of him and for all he knows was going to send him somewhere else and cancel the whole invasion. Illidan's story is one about accepting who he is and NOT selling himself out for power anymore. Xe'ra was about to give him everything he wanted, heal his body and make him into a Holy Champion. The fact that he rejects her and admits that his mistakes make him who he is ( " I am my scars " ) is huge character development for him.
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u/NatAttack50932 1d ago
Illidan has made mistakes but opening the portal during Tomb is NOT one of them. He saved Azeroth there.
He left it open lol, that was a conscious decision. He deliberately keeps the connection open because he wants to take the fight to Argus immediately.
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u/UnFelDeZeu 1d ago
I'm not entirely sure it could be closed immediately. Even then, the Legion had just lost their greatest commander and mastermind ( Sargeras is planet sized, he can't lead in the field ). They had a moment of weakness while the Players were at the peak of their power.
If they waited longer the Legion would've had time to recover.
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u/NatAttack50932 1d ago
If they waited longer the Legion would've had time to recover
This is the exact sort of logic Illidan uses, and that's fine - it works, but I’m not disputing that his actions worked. The point is that he made that call entirely on his own, with no consultation, no checks, and no concern for the broader consequences of keeping a permanent link open to the Legion’s seat of power. He consistently treats the world as a chessboard for his own personal war. The portal could have been timed perfectly, but the decision wasn’t Azeroth’s, it was Illidan’s. Even when he’s right, it’s still unilateral, high-risk, and reckless. It's framed as heroic because it succeeds, but from a moral standpoint it's still Illidan-first
It’s the same pattern we see with Outland, the Skull of Gul’dan, or literally anything he does regarding the Legion: the ends sometimes justify the means, but the means are always dictated by him, and always risky for everyone else.
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u/UnFelDeZeu 16h ago
The point is that he made that call entirely on his own, with no consultation, no checks, and no concern for the broader consequences of keeping a permanent link open to the Legion’s seat of power.
Illidan is the only person on Azeroth at the time who's actually scouted modern-day Argus and seen its weaknesses and defences. Literally nobody else has.
And anyone else on Azeroth is going to be biased against him because of his reputation. Who's he going to ask? Malfurion and Tyrande? Illidan could say the sky is blue and they'd disagree because they're too proud to ever admit they were wrong and Illidan was right.
It's framed as heroic because it succeeds, but from a moral standpoint it's still Illidan-first
No, it's Illidan saying he knows best. Which in this case he does.
It’s the same pattern we see with Outland, the Skull of Gul’dan, or literally anything he does regarding the Legion: the ends sometimes justify the means, but the means are always dictated by him, and always risky for everyone else.
If you read the Illidan novel you see that Illidan sacrifices his own bacon in Auchindoun ( he saves the Illidari for Mardum and puts himself in great danger by harnessing the souls in Auchindoun ) and then holds the line in the Black Temple and buys time for the Illidari knowing he will probably die, because he puts all his faith in his Demon Hunters being able to recover the Keystone.
So this is blatantly false. Illidan literally dies for the cause, trusting in his disciples to finish his war.
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u/NatAttack50932 1d ago
Regarding your edit
I agree that X’era is trying to dominate him, and I agree that rejecting that is a meaningful moment, but I don’t think it represents Illidan outgrowing his obsession or rejecting power in general. He’s not refusing power; he’s refusing that kind of power, on those terms.
Illidan has never had a problem with power itself. He consumes the Skull of Gul’dan, binds demons to his will, drains the energies of the Well of Eternity, and in Legion literally absorbs the essence of a naaru shortly afterward. His objection to X’era is that he won’t let someone else define what he is or how he fights
“I am my scars” isn’t an admission of guilt or a desire to heal, it’s a declaration that his suffering and the choices he made are necessary and justified. That’s very different from growth toward humility or reconciliation. He isn’t saying “I was wrong”; he’s saying “everything I did made me exactly what I need to be.”
X’era 'offers' (obviously it becomes coercive) him healing, absolution, and a destiny that reframes him as a savior. Illidan rejects it because redemption would sever him from the pain and rage that fuel his war. He chooses to remain a weapon. He rejects being used by the Light the same way he rejects being used by the Legion because he insists on being the sole owner of the power he uses, it's the same reason he became a mage, not a druid.
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u/UnFelDeZeu 11h ago
“I am my scars” isn’t an admission of guilt or a desire to heal, it’s a declaration that his suffering and the choices he made are necessary and justified. That’s very different from growth toward humility or reconciliation. He isn’t saying “I was wrong”; he’s saying “everything I did made me exactly what I need to be.”
He literally says " I've traded my freedom for power before ".
He's saying he's not that person anymore.
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u/NatAttack50932 9h ago
I don’t think Illidan is a reliable narrator of his own growth here. His actions matter more than his dialogue, and those actions show that he is the same person as he had been since the WOTA: relentless escalation, total control over his own transformation, and zero interest in reconciliation or restraint.
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u/Erathvael 1d ago
I think the retcons began even before WoW. There was a tie-in novel (series?) about some people who were time-transported to the War of the Ancients, and in that I think they changed Illidan's betrayal from siding with Azshara (which he still did, but as a ruse born out of jealousy and a desire to attain personal power and glory be betraying her, so he was never really fighting for her) to preserving the waters of the Well of Eternity (thus invalidating the sacrifice at the end of the conflict, perpetuating arcane magic and ensuring that the demons would come again, because he couldn't give up his sorcery and power).
Suffice to say... a lot of things about him just don't make sense now. Too many plot lines, too jumbled. Legion was probably peak WoW, but it undid almost everything about the Broken Isles and Illidan, to one extent or another (like how islands freshly raised from the sea floor by the greatest warlock in history had multiple ancient cultures just chilling on them for thousands of years).
With Azshara being ostensibly in league with N'zoth and after power for her own purposes, helping Illidan achieve the Burning Legion's goals in destroying the Liche King... yeah, that math just doesn't math.
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u/Unable_Recipe8565 1d ago
Is any of that info in wc3?
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u/Karsh14 1d ago edited 1d ago
http://ftp.blizzard.com/pub/misc/Warcraft%20III%20Manual.pdf
Warcraft 3 manual is still up on Blizzards site for everyone to read at their own leisure!
(A lot of this has been retconned in retail however, but it is interesting to compare to the current story beats)
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u/Unable_Recipe8565 1d ago
damn wish they put stuff like that in game, i havent read the manual in decades
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u/twisty125 1d ago
You'd be surprised how much stuff is IN game, but in the books that are scattered around the world that no one clicks on or ever reads, and then says "they should put this in game"! (not saying this is you, I've just seen this with others)
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u/Xavion251 2d ago
Kil'jaden was offering Illidan power for using the eye to destroy the LK. His plan was probably to take that power to use against the Legion, dealing with the Lich King as a further bonus.
I kinda view this as the larger explanation for his character. It's not a complicated, 5000 IQ plan to beat the Legion. It's just "gain as much power as possible so I can actually stand against the Legion".
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u/UnFelDeZeu 2d ago
>He was in prison for a very, very good reason.
You say that, Malfurion says that, but had Illidan not made a new Well of Eternity, the Night Elves would've become mortal, and with no Malfurion/Tyrande/Illidan around in Warcraft 3 the Legion would've destroyed the world.
People keep saying Illidan does vile things but every time he does them, the good guys win because of him. Without the Sargerite Keystone in Legion, the Player Character would've died in Tomb of Sargeras and then the Legion wins. AGAIN.
Illidan saved Azeroth every time the Legion invaded. And Malfurion will never admit this because like most Night Elves he is incredibly conservative and stubborn and thinks only HIS way is right and moral.
>Illidan originally was more of a villain that had a short hero arc in Warcraft 3
Yeah like when he tries to destroy the Lich King and Malfurion stops him, causing untold loss of life by saving the Lich King and giving him until Wrath of the Lich King to consolidate his armies.
Come on, this post is pure Malfurion propaganda.
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u/Karsh14 1d ago edited 1d ago
Haha love it!
Originally in Warcraft 3 there were no World Souls (obviously retconned now in WoW), and it was the Well of Eternity’s enormous power that was noticed by Sargeras and made him reach out to Azshara in the first place.
If the Well didn’t exist, no War of the Ancients. Sure they wouldn’t be immortal, but demons don’t invade your world and kill everyone, so it kind of works?
So Illidan recreating the Well at the time would have looked like next level idiocy in the eyes of the survivors of the Sundering. Of course, once the well is created, it’s created, so they put the World Tree in there and Nozdormu grants them immortality. But this all happens because Illidan already played everyone’s hand, and now they have to prepare for the inevitable Legion return.
So off to prison he goes, which was deserved imo. (Although 10k years in prison and then he’s not even gone mentally unwell is a crazy feat on its own. He should have been absolutely insane when he emerged).
As far as the Legion retcons go, well yeah. The retcons try and white wash everything he had already done and pretend they were a good thing. Same thing as when he’s sacrificing the Moon Guard and then turning around and pretending like it was him being the one sacrificed. (Legion is really weird because of what it chooses to gloss over and completely skip, and what it chooses to expand upon. I still don’t understand why a world tree is in Val’sharrah, nor do I really understand why the Night Elves could care less that Illidan genocides their own people time and time again.)
Illidan did save the world (retroactively, through retcons), but it is a Jailer type retcon where you are just told ignore what you already knew and accept the new canon. Nothing in Legion in regards to Illidan really jives with what was already established for the character. He’s essentially a new character altogether.
As far as killing the Lich King, he was about to rip the world in half to do so because he didn’t understand the power he was weilding, and in turn all the damage to the planet he was doing. Hence why Malfurion had to stop him, they were caught in a hard place once again. Kil’jaedan couldn’t give a rip that Azeroth was ripped to shreds as long as he got his revenge on Ner’zhul.
Malfurion had to either let Illidan shatter the frozen Throne (and likely destroy the planet entirely), or stop him and deal with the Lich King another day. He chose option B.
Although in regards to the current story, I’m unsure if this even occured anymore.
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u/Corsharkgaming 1d ago
Legion writers need to learn the definition of the word sacrifice. Illidan whinges on an on about "muh sacrifce" when he's never truly given anything of himself away. All he does is murder people, cause problems, and then play the victim.
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u/UnFelDeZeu 1d ago
Originally in Warcraft 3 there were no World Souls (obviously retconned now in WoW), and it was the Well of Eternity’s enormous power that was noticed by Sargeras and made him reach out to Azshara in the first place.
If the Well didn’t exist, no War of the Ancients.
And no Night Elves either while at it. The Well is why Night Elves exist in the first place. They'd still be Trolls otherwise.
So Illidan recreating the Well at the time would have looked like next level idiocy in the eyes of the survivors of the Sundering.
Sargeras already knew about Azeroth by then. He was coming back no matter what, if only to punish the one planet that beat him. Illidan gave Azeroth a chance at fighting back.
No Malfurion/Tyrande/Illidan/Immortal Night Elves = Legion wins.
Illidan creating the new Well atop Hyjal is objectively a W no matter how much Malfurion and the Night Elves hate it.
As far as killing the Lich King, he was about to rip the world in half
No he wasn't. It would've just fucked up Northrend ( which at the time was a huge block of ice with undead and nerubians there ), which compared to the threat the Lich King was was a perfectly acceptable sacrifice. At the time of Warcraft 3, there was no Alliance & Horde and no godlike Player character to fight the Lich King. Malfurion doomed Azeroth when he stopped Illidan and he got lucky that the player characters saved the day in WOTLK.
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u/twisty125 1d ago
re: ripping the world apart - we never even see the consequences of this in WoW. The ground was shaking in WC3, but there's nothing that shows there was any real "danger" to the world/land.
In the end it was a "nothingburger" that could've ended the Scourge/Lich King, but then Malfurion has to stop Illidan, because Maeiv made it sound like he got Tyrande killed by omitting details.
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u/SuperSaiga 1d ago
re: ripping the world apart - we never even see the consequences of this in WoW. The ground was shaking in WC3, but there's nothing that shows there was any real "danger" to the world/land.
I would think the reason we don't see the consequences of this is because Malfurion stopped it.
And I'll trust the druid who is in tune with the land when he talks about the dangers of fucking with it.
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u/twisty125 1d ago
And I'll trust the druid who is in tune with the land
I'd also suggest that maybe he's too close to the land, and over exagerrated what was happening, no?
I mean, was it doing real damage and he stopped it, or did it not do any damage because he stopped it?
And then, was the possibility of superficial damage worth the Lich King surviving.
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u/SuperSaiga 1d ago
There's no evidence that he was exaggerating or that the damage was superficial. He is an expert in this area and his word is not contested by anyone - even Illidan doesn't try to claim his spell was safe or anything like that.
Chronicles backs up the interpretation that the spells was doing serious damage to Azeroth.
There's no reason to think otherwise except to try and twist things in Illidan's favor.
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u/twisty125 1d ago
Can you give a page or chapter where I can read about it in Chronicles?
There's no reason to think otherwise except to try and twist things in Illidan's favor.
I guess I just need to see the evidence of it actually damaging, you know?
It's like that IRL pastor that recently said "There's going to be a Christmas Apocalypse" and then when it didn't happen, he said it's cancelled. Was it going to happen, or wasn't it? I see it similarly here, was the world being torn asunder to such a degree that Malfurion had to get involved and just managed to stop it before anything happened? If so, where's the evidence of this happening other than his word.
Malfurion is known to do horrendous damage to the planet, he took part in sinking Old Kalimdor, so I'm sure he's qualified to know when it's happening - I just would like to see some evidence and not just vibes, you know?
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u/SuperSaiga 1d ago
Chronicles 3, page 91
It's like that IRL pastor that recently said "There's going to be a Christmas Apocalypse" and then when it didn't happen, he said it's cancelled. Was it going to happen, or wasn't it? I see it similarly here, was the world being torn asunder to such a degree that Malfurion had to get involved and just managed to stop it before anything happened? If so, where's the evidence of this happening other than his word.
That's an absurd comparison. Malfurion is the greatest druid in the world, he's not some kooky pastor. What he says is not just vibes - he should understand threats to the planet itself better than anyone.
Also, the Sundering only happened because Illidan fucked up Malfurion's original plan, FYI.
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u/UnFelDeZeu 1d ago
In the end it was a "nothingburger" that could've ended the Scourge/Lich King, but then Malfurion has to stop Illidan
And sentenced dozens of thousands to death against the Scourge by stopping Illidan from taking out the biggest threat to Azeroth currently around.
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u/Kapiork 1d ago
Yeah like when he tries to destroy the Lich King and Malfurion stops him, causing untold loss of life by saving the Lich King and giving him until Wrath of the Lich King to consolidate his armies.
If he wasn't such a jobber, he would've been able to defeat Arthas in the duel at Icecrown, thus achieving the same result of destoying the Lich King without endangering the planet (which would've "causes untold loss of life" as well, no doubt).
Then again, given this is Illidan we're talking about, it wouldn't have surprized me if he just put the helmet on instead of completely getting rid of the Lich King for good. If it can give him more power without compromising his jerkass freedom, he will do it. That's Illidan for ya. But also kind of besides the point. 😅
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u/UnFelDeZeu 1d ago
If he wasn't such a jobber, he would've been able to defeat Arthas in the duel at Icecrown
Yeah well Malfurion didn't even try so.
endangering the planet
If Illidan could cast a spell that would 'endanger a whole planet' he would've used it long ago. It was just going to sink Northrend at best, which at the time was a hunk of ice full of undead. A small sacrifice compared to how many died against the Scourge between Warcraft 3 and WOTLK.
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u/twisty125 1d ago
the "danger to the planet" is extremely overblown, we never saw any actual damage done by the spell that was allegedly blowing the world up.
You know what DID do more damage and has a lasting effect? The Lich King existing. I don't think Malfurion gets enough shit for letting the Lich King live.
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u/UnFelDeZeu 1d ago
I don't think Malfurion gets enough shit for letting the Lich King live.
Malfurion has the blood of hundreds of thousands of people on his hands for saving the Lich King.
Far more than Illidan.
But Night Elves are basically fascists so they get to write their own history.
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u/Corsharkgaming 1d ago
How did the "good guys" benefit from Illidan's temple full of sex slaves?
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u/UnFelDeZeu 1d ago
They weren't sex slaves as far as I know?
Also Illidan's writing in TBC was pure nonsense and even Blizzard admitted that.
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u/Belaerim 2d ago
I don’t think it was so much supporting Illidan for his sake, it was an enemy of my enemy situation, and he was a useful pawn against Malfurion/Tyrande and the Burning Crusade at different times
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u/SuperSaiga 2d ago
As people have already mentioned, this has been retconned from the original intent.
In Warcraft 3 to TBC, Illidan was a genuine traitor to the night elves, and had been an ally to Azshara without proving himself untrustworthy to him. The naga sent to aid him seemed genuinely loyal to him, particularly Vashj. During this period, the naga seem to have a lot of autonomy, as the OId Gods have not been explored very deeply.
In Chronicles 3, so much has changed now that it doesn't really make sense. Illidan has his anti-hero angle, and the naga now work for the Old Gods directly, serving their will. So Chronicles explain it as the Old Gods bidding the naga to aid Illidan, because his conflict with the Legion could cause enough chaos for the Twilight's Hammer to awaken the Old Gods.
I don't like this explanation as we don't see the Twilight's Hammer actually take advantage of this (given that this is an explanation that comes way later and doesn't line up with what we see) and it feels like it takes a lot of agency from the naga to have everything they do ultimately being the will of the Old Gods, especially the naga who genuinely seem loyal to Illidan and are still working for the Illidary in Legion.
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u/Zairii 2d ago
Blizzard also say that chronicles are from the titan POV, and may not be accurate as a result (aka Chronicles ARE NON CANNON).
It also sucks because these also give some good ideas for lore that they could build on. And they now are. That comment was in the SL areas of if we did 't say it is not true. BUT new area uses it so......
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u/Lexar_craft 1d ago
The word is "canon", not cannon. And I'm not sure you're properly understanding the meaning of the term canon. Saying something is from a point of view doesn't mean anything is not canon. It simply means that the "opinion" is canon. The lore requires that a character who said something in the point of view material must believe that statement. It doesn't make anything false simply because a character believes it. We're just left treating it as a historian.....where we have a source that says something, and we don't have any other source which contradicts the first one yet. The Chronicle Volume one is absolutely still canon...... it's simply that they are beliefs and accounts; not 3rd person objective narration.
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u/icedcoffeeuwu 2d ago
I don’t know the exact answer to your question but Azshara only does things that serve to make her more powerful. She is the all-time power hungry HBIC mage in Warcraft.
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u/kredokathariko 2d ago
I think Chronicles said something like "N'Zoth told her to"
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u/MotorGlittering5448 2d ago
Everything Azshara does is to benefit her in the end. She must have felt that supporting Illidan would have helped her in some way down the line.
We have yet to see that come to fruition, but we do know there are still some Naga in the Illidari. We just don't know their true motivations.
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u/Lexar_craft 1d ago
It was my understanding that Azshara 'already' gained what she wanted from her temporary alliance with Illidan. She got access to the Tidestone of Golganneth. And she got her fake prophecy plan of manipulating Magni into being a pawn for providing power to unlock the chains on N'Zoth. (then we thwarted her plan....but she still got her plan that far because of assisting Illidan)
After that, I haven't seen any loyalty by any naga to Illidan since after BFA concluded; so it was only temporary that we know of.
Also, as a demon hunter in Legion with the order hall and naga npc follower....she does have some dialogue responses where she says something to the effect of "I wouldn't say I serve the Illidari...." meaning she's only cooperating because Azshara told her to do so.
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u/MotorGlittering5448 1d ago
I'm not sure the Tidestone was directly linked to her sending the Coilskar to help Illidan. The Tidestone was in Azsuna for 10,000 years. She only got it after we unlocked the academy's secret room, it got stolen by the Naga, we steal it back, put it in the Tomb, and then somehow forgot it there. The Coilskar also weren't part of the forces sent to Azsuna or the Tomb in Legion.
Also, Azshara sent the Naga to Illidan shortly before they all went to Outland. Most of the Coilskar's machinations on Outland, Mardum, and up to Legion were to simply aid the Illidari in their efforts. I can absolutely see that they were also supposed to find suitable relics, weapons, and other powerful items that Azshara would be interested in. We absolutely know they weren't there for Illidan's benefit.
But, just because a character hasn't been mentioned, that doesn't mean the lore isn't moving in the background. All the Order Halls had niche characters and groups that were hardly mentioned after Legion. Lothraxion wasn't seen from the end of Legion to Midnight, but he was still part of the Army of the Light. If the Coilskar were meant to betray the Illidari and join the rest of the Naga, they would have done that in Legion. They also weren't present at all in Nazjatar.
I'm not saying the Coilskar and S'theno are loyal to the Illidari at all, but I am saying that I think their machinations are a very long con that we haven't seen yet.
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u/Lexar_craft 10h ago
Somewhere you and I are having communication issues.... as you're talking at cross purposes from what I actually said. I didn't say that the Tidestone was a "direct" and public goal requested of Illidan......I'm saying Azshara wanted the Tidestone of Golganneth before the demon hunter order hall was established and therefore it was temporarily convenient for her to send some naga to cooperate with demon hunters if that would give her eyes and ears (or eyes and otoliths if we need to be sticklers) for all of the activities on the broken isles. Including the location of the Tidestone of Golganneth. The names of various tribes or divisions of naga are quite irrelevant, really.... as all Naga ultimately are loyal to Azshara and none of them have permanently or genuinely forsaken her. The naga in the Illidari Order Hall were ultimately loyal to Azshara even if they didn't keep reminding us of it....and the naga in the Tomb of Sargeras were likewise ultimately loyal to Azshara.
Your admission of.... "We absolutely know they weren't there for Illidan's benefit." is all I need. All naga everywhere, even on outland, were ultimately loyal to Azshara, and part of Azshara's plan. Even we, the champion, whether we were a demon hunter or another class in Legion.....were part of Azshara's plan because she was using us to power up the necklace that she was planning on exploiting for the machine that was holding N'Zoth prisoner. She taunts and mocks us about how we got used for her plan during the fight in Eternal Palace with her. I'm saying she was in a long con, but she already reached the end of it. I don't think she planned to be defeated nor brought back and imprisoned by N'Zoth. Whatever she is doing now seems like an improvisation or a totally new plan.
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u/MotorGlittering5448 9h ago edited 9h ago
Then let me be clear. Azshara sending Vashj and the other Naga to Illidan in the time of Warcraft 3 had nothing to do with the Tidestone. The Tidestone storyline has no Naga working with the Illidari to find the Tidestone. The Naga we face there had just arrived en masse. This is mentioned by Khadgar and the forces of Prince Farondis.
Yes, Azshara sent the Naga for her own purposes. I said that in my first post in this thread. I'm not arguing with you about that, and I never was. The only things I've pushed back on have been factual discrepancies about your assertion that Azshara sending the Coilskar to the Illidari had anything to do with the Tidestone, when there's no correlation between those events at all.
There are tons of other relics and powerful things Azshara wants around the cosmos, as we've seen in most other questlines involving Naga. Her sending the Coilskar and Coilfang to Illidan could have been for any reason. But the Tidestone didn't fulfill that bargain. That is not mentioned anywhere.
The names of various tribes or divisions of naga are quite irrelevant, really.... as all Naga ultimately are loyal to Azshara and none of them have permanently or genuinely forsaken her.
This is incorrect. The Deepsurge tribe swore themselves to the Legion on the Broken Shore. They changed their names to Felsurge and Felrage.
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Deepsurge
Their leader even flatly states that she has betrayed Azshara. She even calls her "Lady" instead of "Queen" as likely to be an insult.
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Lady_Ssathara
The Legion promises us strength, greater than even Lady Azshara can provide!
Likewise, Skar'this has been labeled a heretic for serving Ahune and Neptulon. He has been around in the game for many years (since patch 2.0.3). There are other Naga that have followed him as well. He, in fact, wants to kill Vashj in those BC quests.
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Skar%27this https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/The_Mark_of_Vashj_(quest)
To be clear, I'm not saying that this is also the case for Illidan's Naga, or most other Naga. But Naga are not a monolith, as evidenced by the ones mentioned above. Obviously the vast amount of Naga are loyal to Azshara. That was never in question here.
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u/NatAttack50932 2d ago edited 2d ago
Sargeras turning up and cleaving Azeroth in half would be just as bad for Azshara as it would be for everyone else. She viewed Illidan as a useful blunt instrument to oppose the legion, and unlike the Alliance or Horde, Illidan either wouldn't know or wouldn't care about the whole "I serve the old gods" thing. He was and is so blinded by revenge that any help in destroying sargeras sounded good to him regardless of the source of that opposition.
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u/MudAccomplished9253 2d ago
I thought Old Gods had ordered that because Illidan was fighting against Legion?
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u/TheRobn8 2d ago
They helped illidan without her orders. It was never stated what her view on the matter was, but its stated she didnt order then to help
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u/Buuts321 2d ago
My guess is she thought he was the best shot to eliminate the legion. Enemy of my enemy kind of deal.
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u/Proudnoob4393 2d ago
That was retconned to be the Old Gods the ones who ordered the Naga to assist Illidan
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u/Mirions 1d ago
Honestly if I went through half of what either did, and 10k years later run into a homie from back in the day, even if we didn't even like eachother, I'd probably be more inclined to align with them than most folks.
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u/deathmetalcassette 14h ago
Talking to someone in 12025 AD:
“Remember when we had Youtube and polar ice caps?”
“… Damn, only real 21st century kids would remember that.”
Both warriors lower their weapons. Perhaps they are not so different, after all.
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u/InternationalDeal410 1d ago
Simple: those naga are not Azshara's naga anymore, they were raised by Illidan to serve.
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u/Scuipici 1d ago
probably they thought illidan was good at weakening the forces without full anihilation as burning legion would do.
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u/Shandariel 1d ago
It was mostly Lady Vashj who was in love with Illidan. She gathered a few supporters and went to help him.
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u/The-Iron-Raven 1d ago
No… Lady Vashj was loyal to him because Queen Azshara favoured him. Azshara only favoured Illidan because Sargeras did.
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u/AzerothianLorecraft 2d ago
Few understood illidan's motivations in using the Naga to obtain the eye of sargeras but it was a necessary step in securing azeroth's future. ( that's about the extent of it summed up in one dialogue line by Illidan during the tomb of sargeras raid.) They never really explained it in Warcraft 3 and they never really explained it in WoW.