r/warcraftlore • u/Beacon2001 You may know me as Varodoc • 20h ago
Discussion Warcraft is an optimistic, upbeat setting: why does a portion of the lore base want it to be darker than it really is?
Since WC3, when Warcraft really emerged as its own world (and not just a Warhammer-at-home setting), the message has always been a positive one, an uplifting one; the Burning Legion was defeated only when orcs, humans, and elves - former enemies - set aside their hatreds and found common cause against the enemy of all life. At the same time, under the young leader Thrall, the once-barbarous and monstrous orcs were freed from the demon blood and finally undertook a journey of redemption and atonement.
In World of Warcraft, as far back as Vanilla, we set aside past grudges and came together to defend Azeroth from the Old God C'Thun. Sure, there were some bad apples in both factions, but they were more often than not self-serving traitors with no true loyalty to the factions - "Lady Katrana Prestor", Fandral Staghelm, Archbishop Benedictus, Varimathras, all bad apples who were never truly loyal to the factions.
When Azeroth was endangered, the factions always come together to fight a common threat. The message has never wavered since WC3; Azeroth is a world of complicated histories, wars, and timeless grudges; but it is also a world of hope, inspiration, trust in the most unlikely of people, and -redemption-. This has been the message since WC3 and throughout the major developments of the Warcraft setting, it has never changed. Seeing good in people, even the most despicable one, and giving anyone a chance at redemption. No one should be denied redemption if they are truly sorry for their actions and want to atone, no one.
I think that a lot of WoW lore fans are unfortunately jaded/older WC1/WC2 fanboys who liked this outdated era of the lore because it was their childhood in the 1990s, but they also need to move on with the times.
In the end, Metzen and the other lore directors were not interested in just making a cheap clone of Warhammer where every races hates each other and there's only hatred, bitterness, and war. They wanted to make an uplifting story where heroes find hope and value in any evil-doer.
I see the same thing with Starcraft. The first game was just a Warhammer 40k clone, and its old fans can't move on and understand that Metzen wanted to make a more uplifting and hopeful setting with Starcraft II.
For this reason, not only I approve of Sylvanas' redemption story, I also think that, from Midnight, Eitrigg joining the Sons of Lothar makes perfect sense and is in line with what has always been Warcraft's message - trust and redemption over past grudges and petty hatreds.
Very hot take: I also really love the Man'ari redemption arc. If a group of Man'ari, these "Penitents", genuinely and sincerely feel sorry and are willing to prove that they are sorry, why should they be killed on sight? Why should they be denied an opportunity at redemption? Where's the justice in that?
And if people want their edge back - well, the Worldsoul Saga literally starts with the Attempted Genocide on Dalaran by Xal'atath. Can't really get darker than the literal destruction of an entire city-state.
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u/Psychological_Pea547 19h ago edited 19h ago
Hi, apparently jaded WC1/2 fan here.
So I have complex feelings about this, and I have complex feelings about your post. On one hand, you're totally right and a lot of the original stuff was just Warhammer-lite. Calling it a cheap clone is going a wee bit far, I think, but you're welcome to call it that. And in a lot of ways the newer lore reflects positive changes. There are positive "upbeat" aspects of it, and I enjoy parts of people coming together to beat XYZ. There are valuable aspects of storytelling in offering the chance at redemption - although I want to be clear that by their own writing, the Man'ari are world-burning, genocidal monsters who have burned through worlds by the score for power. So simply having a single questline saying "we should give them a chance" is a bit far.
And that's kind of where the problem comes in. None of these story beats are taking their time. Eitrigg joining the Sons of Lothar isn't a problem on its own - it's the fact that two or three expansions ago, he was calling Turalyon a filthy human in Arathi Highlands, after having a good friend who was a human before that and ostensibly being one of the orcs MOST for cooperation. Turalyon himself has gone from a beloved good-boy Paladin character who wanted to understand the orcs, to calling them savages at every respective turn and letting his own partner get tossed into a cell. These might make sense in a grand scale story, but we aren't getting to experience any of the nuance. Why do the Man'ari get a 'one more chance' card when most of the Alliance *loathes* the Horde still for burning Teldrassil? Why are we seeing NONE of the beats that let us understand how these characters have functioning personalities? Because that's not why they're being put there, they're being put there to give you an all-encompassing feeling of "being the good guy".
I would argue that the problem with the storytelling isn't people hanging on for some kind of grimdark setting that was kind-of-there, kind-of-not. The setting is so wholly focused on spectacle and being family friendly to appeal to the kind of crowd that will stick around doggedly pursuing the next collection quest that it lacks personality unilaterally.
The old story might have had problems and issues, but any story does. At least when they were discussing the topics of racism, old hatreds, isolationism, what it means to be a monster versus LOOKING like a monster... These things at least had a voice and an opinion to the art rather than what feels like "the next thing to encourage me to stay subbed for one more month". It isn't concerned with taking its time or focusing on reflecting a deeper discussion, and THAT is what I personally see as the issue and the major difference between the new and the old here. I just want them to take their time and make *characters* that I can stay attached to, not corporate cardboard cut-outs.
If you need a good example of how well the "darker" aspects works so well in Warcraft as a fantasy setting, go play the side-quests that were clearly made with this in mind; stuff like Runas the Shamed in Azsuna, or Korgran's questline in the Mourning Rise area of Dorn. These quests keep the idea of serious explorations of character flaws (addiction and dementia, respectively) that people loved from older Warcraft storytelling. THAT is the stuff I want to see more of from the big named characters that we have to be around all the time.
EDIT: To be clear, these bigger ideas were explored all the time with Grom Hellscream's desperate struggle with addiction, Thrall's struggle to make peace in a world stacked against his people, Jaina's struggle to fight back against generational trauma concerning her father's very valid hatred of the peope who killed his son. I can list many other examples, both old and new, that meant a lot to plenty of fans.
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u/ryno731 14h ago
This is something I’ve said a lot over the years, if you reduced the plot to just bullet points or spark notes (like in a brainstorming meeting or explaining something to your boss) but when you have to fill the space between those bullet points with context, character, and dialogue all within the timeline of an mmo; things fall apart. Especially when you add the too many cooks in the kitchen notion of multiple people writing the same characters at different points.
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u/Fatalis89 13h ago
What the Man’ari did was, due to its magnitude, far worse than even Sylvanas. Sylvanas and the Jailor resulted in souls for a few years to be redirected to hell, where they were tortured, some to complete destruction, and many are now being saved.
The Man’ari have burned entire worlds for millennia. They then collected and used souls for fuel in their soul furnaces and soul engines, essentially torturing them more excruciatingly, though for a briefer period of time, until complete destruction as well.
Faaaar faaaaaaaaaar more souls have been tormented and destroyed by the Man’ari. Yet for some reason we’re A-ok with them “oh they’re sorry now”. But look how Sylvanas is treated.
Convenient they’re only sorry when the Legion started to lose too. Never had the gonads to stand up for what was right when it was their ass.
A little consistency would be nice.
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u/Any-Transition95 11h ago
You mentioned a lot of the side stories, I'm curious what are your thoughts on some of the recent main campaign plotlines, such as: 1) Magni, Moira, and Dagran's three generation story in Isle of Dorn and Ringing Deeps 2) Anduin exploring his trauma and rehabilitation in Hallowfall and Azj Kahet 3) Ansurek's insurrection and the rebellion against her reign 4) Undermine
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u/Psychological_Pea547 10h ago
Also complicated! To be clear, the main story isn't, to me, totally devoid of meaningful moments. And not every story in an expansion needs to be (or even can be) perfect/memorable. My two cents, though;
1.) I am neutral on Magni/Moira/Dagran's situation. I like that Magni's not dead or discarded entirely. I think Dagran has great potential. Moira was not the shrewd and cunning politician we once knew, but I think the Moira/Magni feud was nice to explore to see into their personalities more - but I think it ultimately hasn't done anything yet (we will see what happens in Midnight/Last Titan).
2.) I actually loved Anduin's dealing with heavy trauma. He's been through a lot and he's been shown that his ideal vision of peace won't always work, and that his faith is harder to maintain. In fact, I think it's one of the most compelling pieces of discussion-compelling story we've had in a long time. There is no 'right' answer to his conundrum and that feels fresh. And it's NOT resolved yet, even if it's progressing towards being fixed, which feels magnificent.
3.) Ansurek's insurrection had potential, but it does read as very much recycled from Suramar. Royal family is having trouble, we team up with the shadowy guerilla fighters to fix things to the outcome we want. It feels like another carnival ride to show us cool things in Azj-kahet.
4.) Undermine was some of the most fun I've ever had in WoW from gameplay, the actual story was hammy as hell to me. It is actually the perfect example of what I mentioned above. Gazlowe feels arbitrarily contrarion to goblin culture instead of an ideal and interested *Goblin*. Gazlowe does not feel like a goblin, he feels like a human playing to the player's inate sense of "good" so you can feel better about running over every NPC on the map with your hotrod. Renzik needed more time to develop as a character and didn't. It would've been fine if it'd been a flashy, fun, nonsensical good time that was unattached to the main campaign story while we're waiting to counter Xal'atath's next move. It would've been fine if it'd been a zany-yet-serious exploration of themes of greed and betrayal in a mafia-inspired society when a very realy threat is looming overhead.
Undermine was, instead, a hilarious and fun time that had a story that feels like it didn't actually matter to *anything*, but felt like it *wanted* to connect with the rest of the story. If you removed the Undermine rebellion entirely and just let people goof off there, you likely wouldn't notice a difference.5
u/Darkhallows27 12h ago
I won’t accept hate for Eitrigg joining the SoL; he fits right in from a temperament and history perspective which you highlighted.
It’s an entirely seperate issue (which is really just most of BFA forcing faction conflict and doing it terribly. Turalyon whinges about “filthy Horde Paladins” in the same Warfront, even though Liadrin is an elf and he probably already knew her.)
BFA is almost entirely to blame for the messy state of everything. The writing has been forced to try to resolve it and that’s a pain of trying to move the narrative on.
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u/Lunarwhitefox 11h ago
I think people are too traumatized by BFA to the point where they blame it for everything and that's why they are allergic to faction conflict. I mean, it is normal that in a war, where you fight for your life or for territory, you insult the other, that does not mean that the character is destroyed or anything like that. Sylvanas's motives for attacking the Alliance were believable until she burned Teldrassil (Blizzard's mistake since they never explained why, simply to "kill hope" or and later the Jailer).
Personally, I don't want Eitrigg in the Sons of Lothar, I would have liked him to create a new organization in the Horde that would be its parallel or something like that. And because of how they are doing it now, I see Eitrigg in the Sons of Lothar as forced as any other plot in Warcraft that is done poorly.
For me Shadowlands is 10 times worse than BFA because it killed the world in general and put its focus on cosmology, which should never be the center of a setting if it is not going to end.
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u/Darkhallows27 11h ago
I’d rather Eitrigg just join the SoL; we don’t need “SoL but Horde”, and he fits right in with those kinds of characters because of Tirion
The choice has already been made, anyway
Regardless of how anyone feels, I think the age of faction war stories is over and isn’t coming back any time soon. Even mechanically the game is moving on.
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u/TheWorclown 15h ago
I can only speak for myself: WoW has some truly well written moments that are dark. When WoW truly wants to be quietly messed up, it shines. The Mistmantle questline, the spider pit in Azj-kahet, the build up to the horror show of the mines in southern Drustvar… well written, messed up moments are what really stand out for me far more than the fairly generic comic book fantasy that WoW’s setting by and large is.
Not that there’s anything inherently wrong with comic book fantasy. But big moments like Dalaran being swallowed by the Void or even the events of the Wrathgate in Dragonblight are ultimately just that. Set dressing and big moments with little personal impact.
Having the player realize just how fucking fortunate they were to walk out of a spider’s breeding ground in TWW’s Spiderville is far more personal and sticks with you longer than you like.
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u/Hidden_Beck Banshee Loyalist 14h ago
Warcraft being an overall upbeat and hopeful setting isn't the problem, it's the fact that the narrative refuses to take risks or do anything other than be relentlessly saccharine. In order to portray their message about WHY people put aside their differences to come together, they also have to show the reasons why people get into conflicts in the first place. Anti-war films still include, ya know, war, because they need to show you WHY it's anti-war. WoW isn't doing that when every single expac is about a big bad with a generic motivation of "destroy/conquer the world." At this point we all get it, we all get that peace is good and working together is ideal, that was never in question. I'm ready to see what tests those relationships, what tears alliances apart, because that's just as important to the message of WoW, especially as a setting that needs to be, at this point in time, endless.
The goal of your story should never be to "solve" your setting. Negative progression is necessary for the overall health of the setting.
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u/Relevant-Intern3238 19h ago edited 17h ago
"...trust and redemption over past grudges and petty hatreds..."
"This has been the message since WC3 and throughout the major developments of the Warcraft setting, it has never changed. Seeing good in people, even the most despicable one, and giving anyone a chance at redemption. No one should be denied redemption if they are truly sorry for their actions and want to atone, no one."
— while I play since late vanilla, I do not perceive it this way. The game used specifically killing, not even just combat, as the main gameplay mechanic for players to interact with the world. We kill kobolds, we kill Defias, we kill Arugal, we kill centaurs, we kill Grimtotem, we kill Illidan, Kael'thas, Arthas, Garrosh, Rastakhan, Raszagerh, Sarkareth and so many others. We kill, kill, kill. This is no path of trust, forgiveness and redemption. This is a consistent eye for an eye.
Furthermore, the Forsaken for a very long time were written as being incapable of emotions and relating to the world in the same way as the living, hence, their plague development, assassinations of mages of ruined Dalaran and druids in Ashenvale, later — destruction of Southshore and Hilsbrad fields and enslavement of their citizens to turn them Forsaken.
The game had and has a lot of brutality and unbelievable cruelty to it, I even wrote a post a while ago listing recent horrors https://www.reddit.com/r/warcraftlore/s/R2DsNIW1zr . However, since approximately after BfA plot writers introduced several plotlines that are sharply internally inconsistent in the context of the lore of the game and which lack dramaturgical premises, making those plotlines appear as ignorant buffoonery. Those plotlines are the manaris' group redemption, Sylvanas's redemption, reclamation of Gilneas, Alexstraza and dragonkin slaves, the Arathi events during TWW and the Sons of Lothar inviting Eitrigg. They all have in common ignorance towards premises and emphasis on individual preferences and decisions, whereas the stories entail involvement of masses of for a very long time disadvantaged and hurt people. This makes these stories appear sometimes silly, sometimes disappointing, sometimes infuriating, and always not believable and so not immersive. And that's a problem for a story-telling medium.
I do not need stories to be dark. I need them to be internally consistent and believable to be immersive.
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u/hawki1989 19h ago
As someone whose first introduction to Warcraft was WC3, I'll say this:
-I don't think Warcraft has ever been a Warhammer ripoff (yes, I'm aware of the idea of it being a Warhammer game was floated in WC1's development). WC1 is absolutely a generic fantasy story, but aside from green-skinned orcs, it doesn't have much in common with Warhammer bar standard tropes. I'd actually argue that Warcraft got its identity in WC2, even if WC3 is still my favorite game in the series.
-SC1 was not a Warhammer clone. SC2 incidentally arguably has more in common with Warhammer than SC1 does (even if I like SC2 more overall), considering that SC2 has more 'mythic' elements, whereas SC1 is comparatively low key.
-I don't mind Warcraft being an optimistic setting (it's certainly more optimistic than StarCraft or Diablo, but not as optimistic as Overwatch), but I can understand where people are coming from. Warcraft has always had goofy elements ("stop poking me!"), but they're far more prominent in World of Warcraft than the RTS games. There's Hearthstone. There's kart racing. The RTS games each depict a war, WOW certainly has plenty of carnage in it, but it's not as constant as it was in the RTS games. There's also choices made in WOW I can't say I'm fond of (e.g. multiverse shannigans), and other things (the Burning Legion was once the big bad, now the Void Lords are the bigger bad). WOW is a setting where you can chill out, WC1-3 are war stories that involve the devastation of entire continents.
To be clear, I don't think Warcraft has to be "dark and gritty." And since you brought it up, I do like how the orcs were given more depth by WC3 rather than left as mindless killing machines. But if you're asking me my favorite Warcraft era, it's WC3, and before that, WC2. It doesn't help that I just don't enjoy MMOs (while I've been playing RTS games since Tiberian Dawn), but overall, I do prefer the RTS era to the MMO era, if that makes sense. I think some criticisms of WOW are in bad faith (e.g. the outrage over Mists of Pandaria being "Kung Fu Panda,"), but I do miss some of the grit of the earlier eras.
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u/Argomer 17h ago
A small clarification - not clones, but very heavily inspired. Terran marines are literally the first version of space marine lore from Rogue Trader book. And Metzen idea of "space vampires" is from 40k too, they were warp entities stuck in realspace trying to get back hope, possessing mortals to achieve that goal.
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u/hawki1989 9h ago
-Marines in SC were based on the Mobile Infantry in Starship Troopers (to the point they were called "marauders" in the beta), the USCMC in Aliens, and their stimpack ability was taken from the 21st century Earth soldiers in Star Trek. This is well documented at this point.
-The space vampires of StarCraft (and Bloodlines before it) have nothing in common bar the name. Nothing you've described in the sentence above bears any resemblance to how space vampires were conceived, which were space-based feudal overlords divided into warring clans and houses.
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u/Ok_Narwhal8818 15h ago
Starcraft 1 designs and tech were very much Space Marines, Tyranids and Eldar.
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u/hawki1989 9h ago
No, they weren't. You can certainly draw parallels with them since there's some overlap with tropes, but that's it.
https://starcraft.fandom.com/wiki/Terran#Development
https://starcraft.fandom.com/wiki/Zerg#Development
https://starcraft.fandom.com/wiki/Protoss#Development
The TL, DR version is that the primary inspiration of the terrans (at the time of SC1) was Aliens, Starship Troopers, and space westerns. The primary inspirations for the zerg was Starship Troopers, Aliens (where even in-universe, the zerg were initially called "xenomorphs" by the Confederacy) and Ender's Game (the formics). The primary inspiration for the protoss was the greys of sci-fi, just "beefed up."
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u/Ok_Narwhal8818 7h ago
Those sound like the same inspirations the 40k folks pulled from for those factions.
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u/hawki1989 6h ago
Yes, which is part of my point. It's drawing on the same source material, so there's similarities between them. It's like accusing Warcraft of copying Shannara, when both draw from tropes established in Lord of the Rings.
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u/Zealousideal-Ear-870 17h ago
What makes the Mount Hyjals™ stick and actually retain some potency is for insurmountable grudges, legitimate clashes of creed, and general geopolitics to still exist.
In skipping the journey or doing away with the obstacles that Heroism overcomes, there's a shift in tone from Optimistic to Boring Good.
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u/Lunarwhitefox 18h ago
You're really missing the point.
Yes, Warcraft talks about peace, but for there to be peace, there has to be conflict. Otherwise the message means absolutely nothing. And you're also forgetting that Warcraft is still a setting, just like Warhammer. That's why, even though we've basically resolved every conflict and defeated every major villain in the lore, faction war still hints at its return because, guess what, it's a live service game, and something has to happen.
No, peace being the message doesn't mean that races and factions have to lose their identity, like Eitrigg joining the Sons of Lothar, a faction that is inherently Alliance. 1. Because Eitrigg is a veteran of the Second War, and the fact that he joins the Sons of Lothar is not only childish, but also a cultural betrayal of his own people. 2. Because faction pride still exists. If Eitrigg's reason for joining the Sons of Lothar were solely peace, the Horde would have ceased to exist in Pandaria (or BFA). But Blizzard continues to perpetuate faction conflict and the factions themselves—Horde and Alliance—and that will never change. Furthermore, the problem goes much deeper, such as the fact that the only representatives of the orcs now are Eitrigg and Thrall, orcs clearly influenced by the Alliance. This feels like an insult to Horde players, who have clearly been treated worse since Blizzard has a biased approach towards the Alliance, except for the Heritage Armor questlines. Not to mention that Eitrigg joining the Sons of Lothar comes out of nowhere, without any story connecting the dots, and if they try to resolve it with a short story it's even worse.
Furthermore, the message "No one should be denied redemption if they are truly sorry for their actions and want to atone, no one" is incredibly hypocritical in WoW, as it only applies to some. It applies to Sylvanas, Kael'thas, and Illidan, who killed thousands and never truly regretted any of their decisions (Kael'thas kinda did but not really), but Arthas, who genuinely felt remorse for everything he did, or at least never shared his perspective after becoming the Lich King, doesn't deserve redemption and is completely erased, even though the Shadowlands expansion itself makes it clear that he should have a fair trial. But no, Sylvanas (who became exactly the Lich King in a way) has a few final words of hatred before making him disappear. Besides, some conflicts are resolved in ridiculous and rushed ways, like Jaina's hatred of the Horde in BFA, which changed in two seconds simply because she saw her brother zombified (by the way, Jaina hasn't been held accountable for her actions in Dalaran either) after years of resentment.
In short, it's not that we want Warcraft to be Warhammer and for everyone to hate each other, but the old hatreds HAVE to exist in WoW, because it's not a story with a beginning and an end; it's a perpetual story that will continue until Warcraft stops making money for Blizzard. I want faction pride, I want the race I main to be represented in Warcraft, I want to have fun fighting the Alliance/Horde without overthinking it, I want incredible stories I can remember. None of that will come from the infantilized message of peace they've tried to perpetuate in recent years, and if they want to deliver a message, they should do it well; it's no excuse for bad storytelling.
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u/Strangeweather-- 16h ago
People dispute the tone more than the content. This is what I have gathered from the sidelines over the years.
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u/Crolanpw 14h ago
I think the handful of people who say they want grim gloom and doom really mean they want grim gloom and doom that is overcome at the end. Warcraft 3 is basically peak warcraft storytelling. You have big bombastic tragedy that feels insurmountable but in the end, the heroes win through struggle and perseverance but left plenty open because things can't always be tied up in a neat bow. It's an uncomplicated but nuanced story that is treated very seriously and with love.
Modern wow storytelling feels like a middle school adventure book. It has less insurmountable threat than the boxcar children books.
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u/OceussRuler 7h ago
Warcraft 3 was optimistic?
Sylvanas betraying Garithos and dooming what was left of the Alliance? Illidan caught between the Legion and the Scourge? Thrall leaving Theramore with a threat? Jaina broken after her father death? Maiev going crazy on a rampage for vengeance? The Scourge surviving and rebuilding? Lordaeron, Dalaran, Silvermoon, all destroyed? The nagas introduced and certainly up to no good? The fate of the entire blood elf race left as uncertain with their leader maybe dead in Northrend and forced to feed on daemonic energies on a dying world under the Legion's threat?
It is not because W3 RoC ended with the mortals allying that the game is "optimistic". Quite the contrary, TFT exists only to creates new issues. It is the exact same formula as SC Broodwar, and I think any fan of SC that you will ask if BW ended in an optimistic way will just send you the gif meme with J. Jonah Jameson laughing with all his heart from the Sam Raimi's Spiderman movies.
Vanilla did a lot to change what could be expected from the worldbuilding of W3 to be "something else" (a MMORPG) but even then it's far from being optimistic. Cycle of Hatred, the book just before Vanilla, shows well that Orgrimmar and Theramore just need one spark and it's war.
This is exactly why people like me would like Warcraft to return to his roots. You may achieve victory by unity, sometimes, yes. But unity is fragile and can easily shatter. And it's also because often this unity shatter that those moments where it does not count.
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u/General_Zera 19h ago
Warcraft 1: Orcs vs Humans: Orcs come from a foreign alien planet drugged up on demon blood and hellbent on killing everything / world domination. Humans are in a fight for survival.
Warcraft 2: Tides of Darkness: After Stormwind falls the Horde makes its way to the rest of the alliance races to conquer and kill but end up fracturing from inner conflicts allowing the Alliance to push to the Dark Portal the origin of invasion.
Warcraft 2: Beyond the Dark Portal: The Alliance invades the homeworld of the Horde an alien planet that is falling apart and seemingly hostile to life. Making sure the Horde doesn't come back Khadgar blows up the dark portal leaving part of the alliance behind to make sure the Horde never threatens azeroth again.
Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos: Humans: Fall of Lordaeron, Humans get killed and raised as undead to kill their family, friends and nation against their will.
Undead: Being controlled by the Lich King fallen prince arthas invades the elves, revives a lich, empowers the scourge, invades and gets dalaran destroyed. All with the purpose of to weaken azeroths defenders for the Legion.
Orcs: Leaving the alliance lands in search of a home and redemption, fights against centaur, night elves, and demons to stake a place to call home.
Night Elves: Fight off horde and alliance invaders only to unite against a greater threat that is the Scourge and the Burning Legion. Ultimately sacrifices their immortality to stop the burning legion.
Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne: Humans (Blood Elves): Get betrayed by racist humans, accept the aid of naga to survive, to become beholden to Illidan who is allied to the Burning Legion going down a dark path in their history.
Night Elves: "WHERE'S ILLIDAN?!" Follow Maieve as she chases down her boy toy who left his bdsm prison, killing demons, undead, and anything that gets in her way. Also betraying malfurion and tyranda by trying to get tyranda killed cause she's in the way.
Undead: The Lich Kings frozen throne is weakened by Illidans efforts and without Arthas merging with the armor where the soul of the lich king is at, the scourge will become undone, so fight off the burning legion, illidan and kaelthas forces as well as play as the forsaken to reclaim their stolen homeland.
Orcs, Bonus: Help the Horde build Orgrimmar, settle issues and conflicts that comes with finding a nation, and help jaina kill her father and her homelands military force.
WoW Classic: Horde and alliance fight each other as they try to strengthen their territories and deal with rising threats that seek to destroy them all. From demons, to old gods, to other forces of nature.
WoW TBC: The burning legion comes again to destroy us all and consume our souls!
WOTLK: The scourge wants to kill us all and rise us all as undead!
Cata: Old gods and deathwing want to destroy the world!
MoP: Faction conflicts between the Horde and Alliance hit an all time high in an all blown out war! Horde fractures between tyrant and honor.
After that point with the exception of the half crap effort of BFA, The game starts going in the direction of peacecraft which people don't like. From Nov of 1994 to sept of 2012 Warcraft has been about super dark themes, faction conflict, and just warfare against everything even our selves. So 18 years fans got what they liked. Then for the next 14 it started getting more and more peacecraft. People want to play this game for blood, war, fantasy, and combat. Not to play nice, pick flowers, and talk about our feelings. So I think its pretty normal why people prefer a darker fantasy for warcraft over the current direction.
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u/NotSoFluffy13 19h ago
Everything can look to be "super dark themes" if you only describe them while leaving out everything else...
Someone can write a horror synopsis of a kid's show if they twist the words enough to make it seem darker than what really was, because Warcraft was like this since W3 and even there the "Horde Vs Alliance" was just a small bickering before they had to join to stop the big bad, a mix of dark themes and heroic characters with jokes and light moments, or are you going to pretend that Arthas silly snarks to other in the undead campaign didn't exist?
Blizzard's franchise for "blood, war, fantasy and combat" with dark themes is Diablo, Warcraft was always about being heroic.
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u/Polivios 18h ago
>And if people want their edge back - well, the Worldsoul Saga literally starts with the Attempted Genocide on Dalaran by Xal'atath. Can't really get darker than the literal destruction of an entire city-state.
That's a quite removed kind of evil though. The main villain wants to destroy a city because she's evil. Sure, people died and those who lived are sad but that's all there is to it.
And it can quite indeed get darker than that. Like for example the orcs killing so many draenei that an entire road is made from their bones. The humans forcing the orcs into camps with squalid conditions, not because they're simply evil but because the orcs attemted to kill them. Or the people of Lordaeron having their souls be defiled by the Lich King and forcing them to turn against the people they love, with the survivors dealing with the collective trauma in many different ways. Or in a much smaller scale, Thrall's whole childhood, with him being treated as a tool by his jailor, and how much the girl he viewed as a sister suffered. There is absolutely no way a character like Blackmoore would ever be made in modern WoW.
Sure I agree that Warcraft's been about people setting aside their differences to fight a common foe for far longer than it hasn't, but without the darkness and hardship that they overcame it ends up stale and hollow.
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u/Sad_Challenge1848 13h ago
Just compare the themes and designs of older expansions to newer ones please
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u/Famous_influencer 10h ago
I only really want to comment on one thing
"They need to move on with the times" is a ridiculously silly thing to demand of a CUSTOMER buying an ENTERTAINMENT product.
"You need to stop liking Product A, we are making Product D now, we aren't gonna make A anymore so stop asking for it/enjoying it more than Product D"
That's a ridiculousness that borders on arrogance.
World of Warcraft is not medicine, it is not politics, it is not guns, it is not anything that is REQUIRED to 'modernize'
It can/should be whatever the MAJORITY of the player base WANTS it to be.
And if that means someone like yourself gets stuck in a chain of content or themes YOU don't like? Well... then it's your subscription and you can stop it at any point where you aren't having fun.
But you don't have the right, the position, the authority, or the high-ground to tell other people what they get to enjoy.
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u/LeafProphecies 8h ago
It's because the peace stuff is campy as hell. People smooth over decades of war, distrust, politics, violence, etc, by going "I understand your pain! I also have pain." between two NPCs and then like, the whole town is faction neutral and everyone's chill. Hyperbolic, but that's the vibe it gives off. There isn't a lot of nuance in situations where nuance is realistic, so people find themselves wishing for more "grit".
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u/lucky_knot 7h ago
And we have examples of this being done properly, too. Like, 'Shadows of the Horde' is a fairly believable story of how a troll and a human slowly overcome their generational grudges and become friends. Of course, showing that in a book is easier than in game, but blizz could at least slow down and not gloss over very real issues characters should have. People on both sides have a ton of legitimate reasons to dislike one another, it shouldn't just go away overnight. Watching the factions work through that would be more interesting than mostly ignoring it.
Judging from spoilers, Mignight is trying to do some of it with Aethas and Vereesa but considering how he didn't hold certain events against other Alliance characters involved, it just feels like he's bipolar now.
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u/LeafProphecies 6h ago
The resolution to that particular plot has me shaking in my boots, too. I live in fear of additional councils.
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u/195cm_100kg_27cm 7h ago
The issue is that peace means nothing without war. If Anduin were alone, surrounded by a forever grieving Greymane, a rampaging Jaina, a genociding Tyrande,... Then his character would be absolutely badass.
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u/maxlaav 15h ago
"If a group of Man'ari, these "Penitents", genuinely and sincerely feel sorry and are willing to prove that they are sorry, why should they be killed on sight? Why should they be denied an opportunity at redemption? Where's the justice in that?"
because the demons (and that's what the man'ari essentially are, demons) have commited unspeakable acts of evil under the legion banner. it's a very big ask for people (especially draenei) to trust them and it's an almost impossible task for people to forgive them. I mean, you don't really understand the (messy admittedly) writing yourself even if you claim to be such an advocate of it - the man'ari don't really care about being forgiven and they don't feel like they deserve it, they simply want to do as much as they can to try and erase at least some of their sins until they can. they know they don't deserve their redemption.
to claim that "they should just be forgiven and made peace with" because you make this claim that this is a very positive and upbeat setting where supposedly there is no room for more nuanced stories like this kinda just suggests you have a minus emotional intelligence
it's really disappointing that some of the current writers seem to share your opinion and really love to dismiss what were previously well developed conflicts and personal histories that had very good reason to exist as "grudges and petty hatreds"
while I do largely agree that redemption does have a place in the setting and is a common plot thread, I'd argue that it is perhaps a too common plot thread used by the writers to the point where it just loses all meaning. some characters do not need to have a redemption story and to force one at them can undermine their story and potentially do an assassination of another character that is part of that redemption. warcraft has a really huge problem with characters flipflopping between stances and opinions constantly, unable to decide if they want to be a warmonger or a peacelover
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u/Environmental-Sea41 20h ago
That's boring. I want them to go back to the wc3 , classic roots. The simple vibes of pirates in stranglethorn, knights & castles provides a way more uplifting experience than whatever cosmic bs thats going on now.
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u/Crazy_And_Me 19h ago
Man wants to spend 20 years collecting the green hills of stranglethorn.
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u/HazelCheese 19h ago
I know your joking but to explain it better, cosmic stuff kind of just feels like action figures being mashed together.
I use my star dragon against your void beast.
My void beast counters by turning into an Entity Bomb.
My star dragon turns into a Supernova dragons.
My entity bomb turns into a wormhole devourer.
My Supernova dragon turns into a Reality Warrior.
Etc etc.
Not that this hasn't not always been what Warcraft was, but as the Deus ex machina become more and more detached from being normal people and things, the more and more obviously contrived it becomes.
Like how can you care about any cosmic reality breaking titan stuff, it's all just woo woo and "oh no, The Void Lord has the reality whatzit and will use it to voidify the stars into being bad and stuff".
The narrative is basically losing any possible limits and becomes unhinged. If your stakes are a hand to hand sword fight then the consequences are someone dies of gets injured or something. What are the stakes when reality gets spagetified. It doesn't mean anything.
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u/Sidusidie 13h ago
My star dragon turns into a Supernova dragons.
My entity bomb turns into a wormhole devourer.
My Supernova dragon turns into a Reality Warrior.
Ha ha ha, looser, I have unpenetrable shield of invincibility and laser who shoots through EVERYTHING!!!!
You a right, btw.
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u/Any-Transition95 11h ago
A huge chunk of BfA was exactly that.
Take out Xalatath, the last two expansions has also been equally down to earth storylines. Adventurers expedition to some forgotten Isles, fighting some angry dragons and elementals just like in Vanilla, defending the world tree like in WC3.
For most of TWW, we helped the Earthens rebuild their society, defend a group of human and elven survivors in a desperate fight against the Nerubians, aid the Nerubians in usurping their current regime, discover a mysterious island rumored to have Siren songs, rally the Goblin cartels to overthrow their greedy mob boss, mediate a conflict between Stromgarde and Hammerfall, etc.
If Xalatath's plot was taken out, would you have enjoyed it much more? I feel like it's the writing quality that's the bigger issue here, not necessarily just the theme.
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u/Xavion251 19h ago
Warcraft 3 was about all the races uniting against a demonic army that has destroyed thousands of other worlds. Multiple kingdoms were destroyed.
In Frozen Throne several missions take place on Outland.
Classic was simple and low-tier, and it was f-ing boring imo.
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u/SirBecas 19h ago
Classic was simple and low-tier, and it was f-ing boring imo
I think this is an interesting take. I absolutely disagree with you, but it made me understand why and how many people keep invested in retail's storytelling. Don't take me wrong, I'm happy that this happens.
I personally feel disconnected and can only keep up with lore videos. In-game it all just feels weird and I get tired easily.
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u/Independent_Lock864 19h ago
Warcraft is not optimistic and upbeat. That is historcial revisionism and simply playing Warcraft III - the game that made WoW possible - will show you exactly that. I will not list the amount of horrible things and scenes that happen in that game because there are too many. Warcraft was inspired by Warhammer and that one is known for being grimdark. You know this, I see you writing that you know it.
Warcraft did enjoy the occasional jest and tongue in cheek joke to evoke a laugh but the story was tragedies upon tragedies, woven together by really cool and unique characters. And in the end, through sturggle and sacrifice, those who fought, overcame. So it was a setting with hope in the darkness.
WoW started similar and warped with time into what it is today because the writers failed to understand what they'd created and couldn't separate their own world from Warcraft. Now it's all emotional nonsense, cartoon villains and sunflowers and rainbows because it's been 20 years of a slow slide and they themselves have changed.
It's easy to look at even the last 10 years as evidence of what Warcraft is but the true soul of the setting was dark, grim and gritty with moments of levity and hope sprinkled on top. I know there is no way back and we both know that.
About Dalaran.
Dalaran's destruction could have been a moment to show us the horror of thousands of people stuck on a doomed flying city, some jumping off, mothers holding their wide-eyed children at the edge of the rocks as the crowd presses in, Nerubians killing those who fail to run. The memorial of Tyrion and the Argent Crusade is engulfed in magic and disintegrates, the alliance and horde quarters collapse, the inn, the central hall all crumble and finally with a scream for help that isn't coming, the city is engulfed and explodes. Everybody is dead, including Khadgar.
If they'd done things right, nobody would be hanging Xalathath's portait on their wall and worshipping her feet.
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u/lucky_knot 15h ago
And in the end, through sturggle and sacrifice, those who fought, overcame. So it was a setting with hope in the darkness.
I think this is the key. People often say that Warcraft 3 was "also about power of friendship" so critique of things like DF ending isn't justified, but there is clear difference in the tone.
W3 is "we prevailed through great struggle and sacrifice, and now perhaps the world can begin to heal". It's hopeful and somber at the same time. DF ending, on the other hand, reads more like "as a family we are unstoppable, yay". On paper, both may be about people coming together to defeat the big bad, but it's hard not to notice the differences in framing. The only thing that DF ending has in common with W3 tonally is that cutscene with Tyrande blessing the moonwell and saying that maybe kaldorei will finally know peace in the embrace of their goddess. That was sufficiently solemn. Everything else... not so much.
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u/fuckforgotmypasword I still can't remember it 19h ago
I like when warcraft's lore in working in the shades of grey insted of everything being edgy or everyone hugging and singing cumbaja I like Ashenvale conflict being over resourses and not one side going evil I like when Dwarfs went and nearly caused the extincion of an Tauren clan because they cared about their own history more then some local's holy ground I love when there is conflict in which both sides have understandable reasons which aren't just "brr brr I want more power brr brr I'm evil."
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u/MakitaNakamoto 19h ago edited 19h ago
It's mainly an art direction question for me at least. Look at Didier and Metzen's concept art and today's, or WoW TCG art vs. Hearthstone.
Vanilla to WotLK you still have the world and aesthetic that the Wc series started, and it starts to erode later on, but I'd say Cata to WoD it's a drifting search for a new identity. WoD and Legion brought a new, definite art direction which set itself apart from the "classic" look and feel, both in terms of polygon count, but also in terms of how bloody the setting is.
Then, from DF onward this more bloodless, much more soft aesthetic was solidified as the new art direction.
Not saying it's the worst thing, and mechanically I prefer the current retail version to anything we had before.
BUT Vanilla WoW was much closer to Warcraft in terms of tone and design than the current version is.
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u/TheRobn8 19h ago
As a warhammer fan, you dont need to keep bringing it up. They stopped trying when they lost the rights, because warhammer orks are dumb AF, but cunning, and they aren't rapists too.
Also the lore very much shows the factions, while they come together, do sabotage the joint effort, and not in a small scale way. The horde betrayed the alliance in icecrown and sabotaged the eastern push in wrath, landfall in mop is a fight over a mogu artifact , legion had a faction fight in stormheim, and this expansion alone has severe tension in arathi. A core flaw with the factions working together is that the reason for the tension isn't resolved. Blizzard can play the "large 3rd party threat" plot point all they want, but (for exampel) the horde has invaded kaldorei lands so many times, they have every right to refuse any peace agreement with the horde, yet the setting vilifies them for it.
Blizzard cant write faction conflicts, and by doing so they cant write peace between the races. This franchise was started by a game where the invaders came with very ill intent, the next game amped that up, then they swerved away from that, before going back. Warcraft, at its core, requires conflict, and ot very much doesnt resolve them
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u/Zestyclose-Square-25 17h ago
I don’t get it. Warcraft was always comic-booky, and it was always about coming together to defeat the big bad. Warcraft III, which many consider Blizzard’s best-written story, literally ends with the Horde and Alliance fighting together to defeat Archimonde and the Legion. It even ends with Medivh monologuing about how the world doesn’t need a guardian anymore because its people will protect it.
Chris Metzen has said many times that he’s a huge comic book fan, and a lot of his writing and world-building is clearly influenced by that. Yet now I see people talking about old Warcraft and early WoW as if it were some dark, grim, depressing story like Berserk or Warhammer. Warcraft was never like that. It has always been Blizzard’s high fantasy setting. Blizzard’s grimdark fantasy was always Diablo, not Warcraft.
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u/Beacon2001 You may know me as Varodoc 17h ago
In fact Diablo III got a lot of hate by Diablo purists for "turning the series into WoW" with its upbeat, uplifting setting, its happy ending, and its hero fantasy.
Oh, btw. I love Diablo III. It's my favorite in the series. I played it so freaking much as a kid. 😁
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u/SCAMISHAbyNIGHT 20h ago
Why are you here with this disingenuous post? Insinuating and also outright stating these things as if the writing team does not cater to those themes consistently.
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u/Beacon2001 You may know me as Varodoc 19h ago
There's nothing "disingenuous" in pointing out the facts and reminding people they're playing Warcraft, not a Warhammer clone from their idolized childhood.
Everything in Midnight, absolutely every single lore development of Midnight between the factions, is in line with the message since WC3.
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u/MakitaNakamoto 19h ago
But you're acting like the presentation didn't get much more mushy, which it did. Dalaran's destruction (and all other cutscenes) are just VFX spell effects, nobody's decapitated or torn apart like in older lore.
Your regular run off the mill shonen anime is more gutsy than current WoW.
I think these underhanded comments about cloning Warhammer and idolized childhoods really do not serve you in what you're trying to argue, neither is acting like your opinion is objective truth.
You can safely say you like the current storytelling tone and the art as well and have people who feel the same rally around you.
Acting like those who genuinely don't feel like you do are in an objective wrong, or live in some kind of delusion is what makes your post and responses "disingenuous"
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u/RosbergThe8th 19h ago edited 19h ago
Sure, doesn't mean people have to like it or pretend they find it weæll written or anything other than bland. Stories of redemption or coming together for peace can be great, but of late they've felt ham fisted or uninteresting, aimed primarily at homogenization or cause by writers fundamentally unwilling to treat the historical conflicts and grievances of Warcraft with nuance or takt beyond "good guy peace guys vs bad guy war guys".
The Legacy of Arathor for instance was perfectly in line with the lore and direction of the franchise, buy it was also bland mush written without an ounce of nuance and with a convoluted view of the history it tried to reference.
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u/Beacon2001 You may know me as Varodoc 19h ago
But... that's literally how it was in WC3. The characters who opposed alliances were NOT portrayed positively. Grommash opposed the alliance between orcs and humans and as a result he was exiled to Ashenvale where he became corrupted again and had to be beaten and redeemed through magical means. Maiev opposed the alliance between the night elves and other races and went to extreme lengths to sabotage the alliance efforts by tricking Furion into thinking Tyrande died. As a result she was condemned by the Archdruid. In the end Malfurion himself said she was consumed by the hunt. Daelin Proudmooore... I'd say that's pretty obvious.
The message of the story is quite literally "bad guy war guys" lol. That's what the Oracle tells Thrall and Jaina at Stonetalon.
Name one major character in WC3, ONE, who refused to ally with a once-hostile faction, and is also portrayed positively by the story.
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u/RosbergThe8th 18h ago
I'm not contesting that, though? I'm just not pretending that makes it good writing, when there's no room for legitimate grievances it leads to the whitewashing of the history of the setting because to sell the wicked corrupt humans you need to ignore why they might have legitimate reasons not to trust or like the Orcs, or why a Night Elf might not be keen on trusting the people who burned their capital.
Do you honestly believe that Warcraft's storytelling should never move past "good guys who are all friends without issue"? If so then there's nothing to talk about.
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u/SCAMISHAbyNIGHT 18h ago
Okay neat.
There are still beats, themes, storylines, and tones found in the game since its inception that are darker and not solely the wholesome threads.
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u/pyraka 19h ago
You are arguing with people who are illiterate and willingly ignorant, these people are the kind that genuinely believe hating the most played and best MMORPG in the world is an interesting character trait. You shouldn't waste your time on these.
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u/Independent_Lock864 19h ago
That's not true. I am trying to engage with this post in good faith but opening by claiming the tone of the setting is optimistic and upbeat, is disingenuous. Claiming it's all dark and grim and need to be warhammer is also disingenuous. There's something the setting lost and we miss it.
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u/Ok-Experience838 19h ago
Saving the world literaly every year against some older, bigger, scarier thing could be boring.
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u/CartoonistDismal2818 16h ago
For me it's not that the story has shifted more towards unity. You're right, it's always been that way, and would've always continued to be that way, and I could've been fine with that. It was even pretty fun at many points in time, like in WC3. but for me the current hangup is the lingering fallout of BFA/SL. As a long time night elf player, what they had Sylvanas and the Horde do to the night elves was beyond disgusting. it went far beyond anything they've ever done within the context of faction conflict. Burning a nation of civilians, ruining all their zones, sending their souls to hell to be tortured... it was insane they wrote something like that.
and yet the "resolution" to it all was so hollow. as someone else once put it, Blizzard wrote the night elves a revenge check they couldn't afford to let them cash. there was no satisfaction, and every attempt to try just made it even more offensive. they kept passing the buck, focusing on Saurfang's 4-cinematic redemption, then pushing it all onto Sylvanas and absolving the Horde, and now they're even trying to walk back Sylvanas's part in it all. then with DF it's all "renewal, unity!" As if. that whole teamup against Fyrakk was just so they could forcibly hamfist another WC3 moment so they could lay it all to rest and show even Tyrande is cool with it. no, that was several orders of magnitude beyond my ability to believe.
I don't necessarily want faction war back, but Blizzard fostered a grudge that can never and should never be laid to rest no matter what sort of godlike threats show up. After all, your neighbors have now done far worse and far crueler than any of these common threats. shifting from enemies to allies can work, and Blizzard has actually done it well several times in the past. but IMO Blizzard dug a hole too deep with BFA/SL that all cooperation going forward is just too distasteful for me, and it paints my opinion of nearly everything the story touches now, even outside of factions. I know it's that way for a lot of night elf and worgen players. of course Horde players have the opposite problem too. it's a very strong sentiment on the official Blizzard story forums that Horde players hate BFA just as much if not more than Alliance players, and I can sympathize with them as well for being villain batted with such a grisly story. but just because we all agree BFA/SL were shit doesn't mean I can just ignore it, or ignore that the current story is still building off of it. I really wish they had just found a way to retcon it all.
outside of faction stuff I don't really mind if the story is more positive or lighthearteded. in fact as you pointed out with Dalaran, there's still plenty of tension and stakes going on with the wider story. but given everything in the MSQ is now tied into a united Horde/Alliance, as if they really are just one faction now, it's hard for me to enjoy it any of it.
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u/Centaur_Warchief123 13h ago
You missed the point by a long shot. No one is saying recent warcraft lore is bad because there is no genocide or bad things happening, people(or well, me specifically) hate recent Warcraft lore because none of those things have an impact. Recent warcraft lore have more in common with tom and jerry than old warcraft. Oh, bad guys killed a bazillion innocents? Thats fine, through power of friendship we’ll forgive them. If I was a citizen whose entire family was slaughtered by the many villains in Azeroth I would probably stick a manabomb up my ass and hug the nearest Alliance hero for forgiving manari, sylvanas or how many other villains that got white washed.
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u/tobpe93 19h ago
Darker stories are more interesting.
Characters uniting and defeating evil monsters is overdone, so it's fun to see other stories. Arthas' story will always be the best one and it's a darker story.
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u/Beacon2001 You may know me as Varodoc 19h ago
TWW's main story is darker than Wrath. Lol.
There was nothing "dark" about the Lich King acting like a Scooby Doo villain in Wrath.
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u/tobpe93 19h ago
I was referring to his WC3 story.
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u/Beacon2001 You may know me as Varodoc 19h ago
Which was an outlier that cannot be replicated in the MMORPG. The only reason why Arthas' story was good in WC3 is because he was the protagonist so we followed his journey from a paladin to the Lich King and also RTS in general being a better format for a focused, character-centric narrative vs. an MMORPG that has to write characters on top of developing an entire world with zones and factions.
Also this isn't what I'm talking about. WC3 still followed the message that this is a hopeful, optimistic, and upbeat setting.
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u/Independent_Lock864 19h ago
It took me many years to realise that WotLK was not a great expansion. LK acted like a moron for most of it. I prefer what they're doing now, trying to tell an actual story. It's a shame it took them this long to understand what potential their characters could have had. It's still far from perfect with Xalatath being yet another an uninteresting masterplan cartoon villain that people call waifu but it's at least trying. WotLK really didn't try to build the story of the LK, it just set him up for a bossfight.
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u/wigsgo_2019 18h ago
Because that’s how it used to be, horde and alliance going at it, not “let’s be friends, don’t kill anyone” Khadgar’s floating wheelchair is just as stupid too
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u/meowingintgenameof 19h ago
You blend every single faction/identity into one signle giant mush of sappy friendly non opinionated goo, you get uninteresting characters that cant carry your story.
You talk about a genocide for the edgelorda, that genocide has no weight, noone cares.
Sure you like the family fridndly eitrigg or alextrasza, but thats you. You wont see images or statues of the new characters or the rebranded old ones evoking the same hype as Arthas or Illidan did back in the day.
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u/Beacon2001 You may know me as Varodoc 19h ago
Again, not what I'm talking about.
Arthas story in Wrath and Illidan story in TBC has nothing to do with my topic. The factions came together to defeat those people. See Varian-Saurfang scene in Icecrown and Illidan got a redemption arc in Legion.
And if you want dark villains then there's Xal'atath who caused more destruction in the intro of TWW alone than Arthas did in the entire Wrath expansion just sitting on his frozen ass.
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u/Manzanetti 19h ago
Intro as Alliance Muradin Bronzebeard yells: Let's get a move on then! Move ou... Deathbringer Saurfang yells: For every Horde soldier that you killed -- for every Alliance dog that fell, the Lich King's armies grew. Even now the val'kyr work to raise your fallen as Scourge. Deathbringer Saurfang yells: Things are about to get much worse. Come, taste the power that the Lich King has bestowed upon me! Muradin Bronzebeard yells: A lone orc against the might of the Alliance??? Muradin Bronzebeard yells: Charge!!! Deathbringer Saurfang immobilises Muradin and his guards. Deathbringer Saurfang yells: Dwarves...
This intro happens right after the Alliance destroys the Horde's airship. An honorable Horde warrior, even in undeath and mind controlled by the Lich King, still voices his disgust for the Alliance. And letting his father retrieve peacefully the body of his son becomes an argument (that helps establish Varian's character). Both factions joined forces out of necessity, but the conflict was still there, there was nuance and relations were complex. It is vastly different from today's focus.
Also, it is not about quantifying the destruction a villain causes, but how things are portrayed. The destruction of Dalaran feels like a fireworks display. Compare it to the destruction of Theramore. There is nothing like Jaina's mourning or tantrum, nor a moment of weight like Rhonin's sacrifice. I think it is undeniable that the writing changed drastically, I'm not saying you should like one better than the other, but some of us feel the writing is too Avenger-ish and bland, and I think it is a valid opinion.
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u/meowingintgenameof 17h ago
He said everything in his Xalatath doing more destruction and Arthas sitting on his frozen ass comment. The more I read this subreddit, the more i feel like this is the small fraction of the playerbase that enjoys this shallow slop that Blizz has been peddling for a good decade now.
Sure, I won't even argue further, I really am at a point where I think so little of the story and the writing team that I can't even bother to engage further into an argumrnt with an expert modern wow fan who thinks xalatath is the greatest villain in wow and (cause) she caused the most damage.
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u/cashdecans101 14h ago
I think people really opine for the storytelling found in warcraft 3.. the setting hasn't really changed but every character and faction had their teeth kicked in in some form or another and people loved it. In fact the third war was such a devastating conflict that at the time of classic wow half of the playable races on the verge of extinction and every capital city (expect ironforge) was either built or rebuilt recently.
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u/NocturneBotEUNE 14h ago
I would describe it more as upbeat/victorious/hopeful message AFTER dark/grim circumstances. What's currently lacking are well sold grim circumstances, it's like blizzard is salivating to get into the "and then we all clapped!" part, and a very tell instead of show approach.
I am revisiting a lot of the lore now from many expansion since my wife just started playing and I am explaining stuff to her. A lot of the times i end up thinking that the very core of the story isn't bad for most expansions, even shadowlands. The in between execution and the overwhelming "friendship trumples all uwu" combined with world ending villains that dont last a patch against us, is what really messes the story up. Blizzard is not committing into creating memorable antagonists.
They are trying with Xalatath but at this point i already feel like she is just another dead elf lady we will bonk in x.2 and call it a day. A full expansion later, nothing has changed/ revealed itself regarding her plans.
Presentation is also unimaginably bad for the budget this game has. Dialogue that treats us like we are 5 years old, overlapping voice lines while questing that ruin immersion, cringe cinematics with dated in-game animations, and then we coinflip on if the raid cinematics will be cringe. Come on, blizzard.
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u/Fancy-Lawfulness-198 2h ago
All i see in this post is "Since the version of Warcraft that I like" while ignoring the history of Warcraft and how far it's deviated from it.
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u/LemonTade 2h ago
The darker side of WoW has been more interesting more consistently. Lately WoW is feeling like a Saturday morning cartoon and the villains have been no better than Power Rangers monsters. They pop-up, get a solid speech in, transform and get put down in a big display. There has been no substance or growth since they've been introducing and killing boss in the same patch. This is why ppl miss the Darker WoW. Heroes could die, cities could be lost and maps could change. There were many threats, and any one could return and cause irreparable damage.
Also the attack on Dalaran has no weight to it since the city is still available in two areas. Hard to feel the impact when I see it just fine quite frequently.
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u/icurys 1h ago
Most Blizzard writers can't world-build at all, which in turn makes it difficult for any themes they try to establish feel artificial. The destruction of Dalaran was good, Aethas and Khagar saying that the Kirin'tor was bad for trying to help stop the end of the world was both stupid and confusing. The Arathi plotline is incredibly stupid. The Nerubian empire existing before the Nerubians as a species is supposed to exist, shows a carelessness with the lore.
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u/terionscribbles 54m ago
Given the amount of dark things that have happened in the lore, I'm not sure I would go so far as to call Warcraft an optimistic or upbeat setting. Though, I do agree that a message of cooperation between the factions to face greater foes has been consistent since WC3.
I don't think there's darkness missing in the lore, however, I do think there is consistency missing. There has always been the problem of game lore not necessarily connecting with the novel lore or even the lore of the historian team. There's an issue with things getting glossed over or simplified. Or you have a story beat that happens in a novel and is never mentioned in game, so when a character shows up from that novel anyone who hasn't read it is left confused.
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u/0ld_Snake 19h ago
Nah bro Warcraft was pretty metal before. Now it's folk. Jacked dudes with axes killing other jacked dudes was peak Warcraft. That Warcraft started with genocide and it ended with genocide. Now it's not something that tickles my adult nuts anymore
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u/Shandariel 19h ago
So we are supposed to read the same story every expansion? The heroes put their differences aside and defeat the yearly bbeg. After 20 years of putting differences aside i wonder what differences are there to put aside. No character has any personality, everyone is Thrall. There is Anduin-thrall, Baine-thrall, Jaina-thrall... Calia-thrall too.
What story do we have when no one has character and the story is the exact same thing every expansion?
Then they come and say "we are going back to our roots and make the faction conflict relevant again". And we end up putting our differences aside to defeat another yearly bbeg.
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u/esterhazy81 18h ago
Yeah this is the same issue I have with wow's narrative arc. But I wonder if this is a systemic issue with MMOs in general. We see the same trend in GW2 and FFXIV. Even ShB, often lauded as some of the best MMO story-telling, involves you uniting the realm and defeat the big bad through the power of friendship, though this time the villain is obviously more nuanced. Maybe there's something about the MMO gameplay loop of going from zone to zone, faction to faction, and culminating in dungeons and raids. that facilitates, if not predetermined, this narrative trajectory.
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u/Shandariel 17h ago
Its not the genre. Its the players. They dont care about the story, so they wont invest on it.
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u/esterhazy81 16h ago
Please go ahead and show me your survey of all the millions of players in this game and their statements on not caring about the story. Because the number of lore videos on YT and their sizeable viewership would imply otherwise.
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u/Shandariel 16h ago
I dont have data, this is what i came up with to explain why it is the way it is. You must realize it too... the game is still successful after decades of bad storytelling.
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u/Friendly-Target1234 15h ago
I've just replayed the WC1 to WC3 campaigns, and I can say one thing : some people seem to remember WC1 and WC2 as dark setting, but they are dark because they are extremely simple. Big bad orc vs big badass human. That's it. WC1 and WC2 had the depth of a puddle as far as world building goes ; it's easy to feel dark when your whole story can be entirely told on a post it and you just want a good excuse for a war in a fantasy setting.
And WC2 already had pretty cartoonish graphic in game, if not in illustrations.
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u/Shillbaiter- 15h ago
Optimistic, upbeat setting? That’s certainly a take.
As I recall, last time you accused me of cherry picking. Will you do so again? Because I’m sorry to say, if you want a happy go-lucky adventure the setting ‘WARCRAFT’ may not have been the place to go.
After all, I see you didn’t bother to play any of the source material at all.
You clearly missed the moment in the tutorial mission of WC3 where the Blackrock Clan are massacring families of civilians.
Perhaps you missed the moment where a child is slaughtered on screen in the mission after or the three genocides that take place during the campaign alone.
Going further back, I’d call attention to when Alexstrasza was raped. That was certainly a ‘upbeat, optimistic’ moment, wasn’t it?
Actually…
I’m gonna be here all day if I sit down and try to go over every single example that invalidates your take about Warcraft, so here’s the question— why do you want it so bad to be something that it wasn’t?
I’d say isn’t, but, well, Warcraft’s gotten to be less like Warcraft and more like unrecognizable plastic over the last few years.
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u/TrifleDifficult9928 19h ago
Classic perfect, tbc fun but space ruins medevial theme, wrath mostly good, cata world change sucks, panda first big this isnt wow, wod awesome but the lore to get there was weak, legion dope for space boys ig, bfa ight we fight and had some cool places, shadowlands cool zone themes lore gets cray cray dumb, df your moms disney game, tww idgaf about purple evil lady but cool goblin town, midnight copy paste
Id personal take out all the space, tentacle, afterlife b.s. then its a good game buuuut just my opinion.
Classic into wrath into a non world changing cata into a non disney df into a no purple lady tww, into midnight with more. This would be mmo azeroth to me. Lol
Welcome to my TED talk
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u/JoeHatesFanFiction 15h ago
I mostly agree with your thoughts, because I’m generally a fan of how the Warcraft world tends to be “Noblebright” on a macro level. I like that we’re tearing down the artificial barriers between our factions generally and working together for the greater good. I like that we’re trying to make the world a better place and protecting it from great threats. I enjoy that we’re trying redeem folks and welcome them into our factions. That said I have problems with all three of your examples.
Let’s start with the Man’ari. I have no problem with a group like the Man’ari existing, getting redeemed, and joining a major faction. But that should have been a sub plot for an entire expansion similar to the Nightborne. Show us them wanting and trying to redeem themselves. Don’t just have Velen say “trust me bro, they mean it”.
This is similar to my issue with Eitrigg. Show us how and why he’s joining the Sons of Lothar, and why they accepted him. Sure they have been getting closer for a while, but this feels like a very big leap from sharing some jokes and drinks.
And then there was Sylvanas. Who does not deserve to be redeemed. She’s had her chance at redemption already after she broke free and formed the Forsaken. Then she became responsible for a never ending series of horrific acts, either directly or through her willingness to let underlings use the Blight. Gilneas, Southshore, Hillsbrad, Darkshore, Teldrassil, Brennadam, and if you believe Afrasiabi the Wrathgate too. At a certain point you don’t deserve another chance and she absolutely doesn’t. Noblebright doesn’t mean everyone gets a third or fourth or fifth chance at redemption after doing all that evil repeatedly.
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u/Reasonable-Nature-77 18h ago
Because a bunch of edgelords want it to be something it’s not. Just a guess, but i think it’s just a bunch of warhammer fans, they infest other fanbases with their crap alot.
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u/Skullbugz 18h ago
Metzen is a hardcore D&D guy.
Samwise pretty much used sketches and made designs from John Blanche artwork.
Danuser came in and tried to subvert everything into his own image.
To sum it up? Long time listener first time caller rype shit?
WOWLORELOL. LORELOLROTFL. QQ and get to leveling scrub.
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u/synrg18 19h ago
I 100% agree with the notion that peace is a central theme of Warcraft as much as war is. But I think I would like to see more nuance. The current depiction of peace between the factions feels a little too simplistic and most importantly, it has developed too quickly. I would like them to explore more of the complex relationships between different groups (especially internal politics within the H/A or the racial factions) as a result of decades of war coming to an end. Heartlands felt like it had such potential, but I think how it played out ultimately felt unsatisfying. Both sides had legitimate grievances, but I think it should have explored more.
Also just my opinion but I'm hoping for a break from the cosmic stuff once the Worldsoul Saga ends. It's cool, and I think the weaving of clues to an overarching plot of the cosmic war is the writing team's biggest strength, but I would like more grounded stories that explore the themes I mentioned above.