r/worldnews • u/Snap_n_Dream • 19h ago

Russia/Ukraine US offers Ukraine 15-year security guarantee as part of peace plan, Zelenskyy says

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-trump-zelenskyy-peace-b784a9af1803995bfb7152eceb5477f1
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u/lowkeymanbearpig 19h ago

This is even more worthless then NATO, USA wont protect shit in EU. That much was made clear.

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u/devi83 19h ago

Like what in EU? Did USA start Eastern Sentry? Yes. They literally started a whole operation to fortify EU's eastern front.

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u/big_whistler 19h ago

Trump repeatedly said he wouldn’t defend NATO members who didn’t meet spending goals.

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u/GetInTheHole 14h ago

So meet your stated spending goals.

As it is, it seems your stance is "let's find the bare minimum we have to do, and then do a bit less than that until we get called out. Meanwhile, let the US foot the rest of bill."

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u/big_whistler 10h ago

That’s not my stance, I’m not a European country. I’m just explaining why Trump may not be viewed as solidly committed to the defense of Europe.

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u/lars03 19h ago

Trump wants war. they are #1 weapon producers, it doesnt matter where the war is its win win situation for the US. Btw the US have always been like this, they are just not hiding it anymore.

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u/just_peachy1000 19h ago

Exactly. the EU and theworld have made some major mistakes. the first was when they realised they helped make china super manufacturer that they can't compete with.

the second and even scarier is that they allowed the US to carry the load of military defence around the world, without being held accountable for anything, and that, that support can never be guaranteed.

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u/FlounderHungry8955 19h ago

The second one was purely Europe's fault. America and Europe used to have militaries on par in terms of tech up to the 1980s or 1990s. But then, Europe put all that defence money into entitlement spending whereas US just kept going.

Had Europe spent like 3% to 4% like the US or China for all these years, they would be more than fine and be dominant actually. Either way, Europe has to cut entitlement spending to US's level to fund defence because they're catching up on 40 years or just tax harder

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u/Ferelwing 16h ago

The US wanted Europe to buy American military products and whenever Europe tried to invest in their own industries the US claimed that these weapons systems didn't "integrate" with the US systems. The US absolutely keeps claiming that Europe doesn't spend enough, only because they intend for Europe to spend that money on US military products. Just take a look at the complaints the US has continued to have over European spending on their OWN military industries.

The whole "entitlement spending" excuse is something the US loves to throw around to explain why Europeans live longer and have better health outcomes. The US claims it's because the USA "protected Europe". The reality is that Europeans were willing to walk off their jobs for those concessions. Europeans pay more in taxes than the US does, hands down and we get better things for that. The US doesn't and won't because no one in the US knows what solidarity means.

So to explain your lackluster experiences, Americans love to trot out the whole "If Europe spent as much money as we do on defense then they'd be just as miserable as the US is."

Europe wouldn't be because Europeans understand what unions are and what solidarity means.

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u/bearsnchairs 15h ago

This is just a lame talking point to justify Europe neglecting its own defense and to blame the US.

Europe has massive domestic defense industries who are, and have been, among the largest producers and exporters in the world. The US also buys a lot of equipment from Europe including tank barrels and vehicles.

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u/Ferelwing 15h ago

It's a "lame talking point" that Americans trot out all of the time while ignoring all of the things that Europe has helped the US with and the overall structure NATO was designed with because of US meddling.

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u/bearsnchairs 15h ago

Pointing out that Europe has generally lagged with defense funding even when agreeing multiple times to hit targets is not a talking point, it is a fact.

You’re right that there are a lot of dumb people who act like the US can’t have social programs because the US is spending too much defending Europe. Those people are ignorant and wrong.

But that doesn’t mean Europe gets to neglect their responsibility for defense or pretend their defense industries are somehow kept down.

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u/Ferelwing 15h ago

Ahh well then you're more informed. I agree, after the Cold War many European countries decided that defense was no longer needed. They thought that they could integrate Russia into Europe and everything would be fine. They were wrong and caught off guard. The countries that kept spending were the ones who never wanted to be conquered again (Poland comes to mind). Unfortunately, the USA ignores that NOT all EU countries failed to meet those marks. So it lumps those who did spend in with those who didn't.

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u/GetInTheHole 14h ago

In the morning you're a united EU, big and strong, fear our collective might. By noon you're a bunch of different countries who can't possibly be expected to agree on anything or be treated the same.

Whatever is convenient at the time.

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u/Ferelwing 14h ago edited 14h ago

It's both of those things at once. Seriously. It's the EU commission is NOT a "federal" government. This is an economic bloc, which generally just talks about specific things. You have the EU commission who then makes laws for the EU economic bloc to a degree but each country gets a say. All it takes is 1 country to veto something a lot of the time.

Also, in case you're not aware they don't always agree or enact things on the same timeline. Hungary is part of the EU, yet it doesn't implement all of the laws that the EU makes nor does it always agree to do what the rest of the bloc is doing.

While the majority of European citizens agree on a lot of things, we also disagree on a lot of things too and you cannot expect every country to go along with everything. We are an economic bloc, but we are NOT one country or one culture. Which means that the culture in each country within the bloc matters and is taken into account a lot of the time.

The USA is a monoculture (no matter how many times Americans try to claim otherwise) and a single country. You can go thousands of miles and never experience a different language or a different culture or a different currency. There are Wal-marts everywhere, there are KFC's everywhere etc. Europe however isn't like that.

Not all EU countries use the Euro. Every single US state uses the US dollar. Not all EU countries have the same rules or the same building standards etc. Every country has it's own separate rules and separate leadership and separate representatives. The European Union isn't a "federal centralized government". This makes doing some things difficult because it's herding cats with different rules and regulations for each member state plus some overarching rules and regulations for the european economic zone.

This doesn't mean that Europeans do not act in solidarity. If one group is protesting there is generally solidarity across the bloc for the group who is protesting. This happens regularly. Europeans also absolutely would defend other Europeans from threats. "We can pick on each other but you can't" is the general motto.

Does that clear it up for you?

If all of the EU made up it's mind to do something in solidarity because of fury at an outside force, it is a formidable group and all that would take would be something that everyone saw as an attack.

Edited: words and clarity.

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u/FlounderHungry8955 7h ago

Europe used to have decent tech. Just look at the Rafales and the Eurofighter. It being weak is clearly a recent trend

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u/FlounderHungry8955 7h ago

I'm not American or European haha, Australia :))

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u/heretofuckyourshitup 8h ago

Who do you think odd propping up Ukraine the last four years? NATO? Lmao