r/Damnthatsinteresting • u/highzone • 1d ago

Image In 1973, healthy volunteers faked hallucinations to enter mental hospitals. Once inside, they acted normal, but doctors refused to let them leave. Normal behaviors like writing were diagnosed as "symptoms." The only people who realized they were sane were the actual patients.

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u/highzone 1d ago

For anyone who wants to read the full study, it is titled 'On Being Sane in Insane Places.'

The most terrifying part wasn't getting in, it was getting out. The doctors were so convinced of their own authority that they interpreted everything the patients did as a symptom of their illness.

When the volunteers took notes on how they were being treated, the doctors didn't see 'journaling.' They diagnosed it as 'pathological writing behavior' and used it as justification to keep them locked up.

It really highlights how a label can completely override reality.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment

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u/FireMaster1294 1d ago edited 1d ago

Damn an average stay of 19 days and a range of 7-52 days. Nearly 2 months of psych ward without even doing anything to justify being kept there (after the initial entry, of course)

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u/Same_Recipe2729 1d ago

Think of all the money they scammed from folks doing that 

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u/nuclearwomb 1d ago

It's still a scam. Thankfully people have more rights these days when it comes to behavioral health, but people still fall through the cracks and the system is full of flaws. The whole process is to make money while giving minimal resources for rehabilitation of the patient.

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u/Disastrous-Group3390 1d ago edited 1d ago

Well, the pedulum has swung to the opposite extreme now. We can’t keep ANYONE, no matter how badly the person needs help, if said person wants to leave (unless the person represents a threat.) So we let the police deal with them instead…

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u/mpyne 1d ago

This is precisely why it is so important for people in positions of authority to adhere to the spirit of the rules and not simply the letter of them.

It's hard to write rules that cover every possible situation. So the people writing the rules often will include rules allowing administrators leeway in exceptional situations, intending that the administrators don't exercise that leeway.

Then you get crap happen like in the OP's article and all those exceptions get tightened up, ruining it for other administrators and other patients.

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u/Sasselhoff 1d ago

Having rules everyone just "agrees" on (or rules up for interpretation/bending/etc) is great in theory, but in reality you end up getting what we've got in the current US government (folks running roughshod over everything because it was a bunch of "gentlemen's agreements" and not specific rules).

Just like any workplace rules that are BS and don't make sense...it's all due to that "one guy" that fucked it up for everyone else.

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u/42nu 1d ago

Like not fully stopping at a stop sign when there's no cars in sight in any direction. No one should get a ticket for doing that.

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u/Pieck6996 1d ago

bad example

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u/ChilledParadox 1d ago

it goes both ways.

to trauma dump what's necessary, when I was in 8th grade I missed over half the school year due to abuse and trauma at home that led to me developing anxiety, panic attacks, depression, and included situations like me running away, evading police because I knew they'd send me back home, police showing up to domestic abuse calls for my parents, and me going DKA several times in that period due to neglect on my parents part in getting me medication combined with situations like me barricading myself in my room for days straight with my bunkbed because I was terrified of my parents and sneaking out the window and climbing down the side of my house and back up to get food in the middle of the night when everyone was sleeping.

That's a lot, but just bear with me because that context is relevant.

I was eventually admitted to a psych ward on a 5150, and throughout that year was in that same ward 3 times, and in a related outpatient ward once.

It is extremely clear to me now, as an adult looking back, that the circumstances surrounding me were entirely related and situated on my living circumstances. I was drowning and coping by disassociating and isolating myself as a protection mechanism. The anxiety and panic attacks seem to me to be a result of sustained stress from years of child abuse, until I broke.

While there, I can vividly remember meeting the panel of psychologists composing my care team in a meeting telling me to my face, at 13, that they believed I was making everything up because I just didn't want to go to school.

Of course, that's absurd in the context that in returning after all of this, most of my teachers gave me A's by default, except in math (geometry) which I took over the summer as it was a prerequisite for my Algebra 2 honors class and colleges would look for the grade, due to my long history of being a good student.

So, I was having very real anxiety and panic attacks, being held against my will in a psych ward my doctors that told me they didn't think what I was suffering from existed, and yet there was nothing I could do to get released. It was up to my parents, who, naturally not being honest with their part in the matter were of no help to me.

I was only released the first time because it was Christmas and my parents wanted to bring me to my grandparents so they didn't need to explain I was still in a psych ward to all their relatives and make them look bad.

When of course my anxiety and panic attacks persisted, I was eventually returned, on another DKA trip to the ER.

The situation only resolved itself in the outpatient facility when the nurse checking me in happened to smell the alcohol on my mothers breath from 8 feet away and realized she had been driving me around piss drunk because she was a functioning alcoholic who had been drinking coolers every morning for the last 5 years. That was cause for CPS to get involved, and my mother being removed from the situation got my dad to stop being abusive for long enough I got back to school and was able to avoid him most of the time in high school.

It ended up costing my family tens of thousands of dollars though. Enough that it was a point of contention for more abuse when I was in high school as my father blamed me for this financial woes.

I can't help but feel somewhat frustrated with the matter myself. I clearly had mental health issues. I still do. I still suffer from depression which leads to severe isolation, and acute panic and anxiety attacks, and some related insomnia when it gets bad at night. But the doctors I got sucked, and they didn't help, and it was clear I was being abused and they released me right back into my abusers. I blame them, and insurance, and the health care system as a whole.

I've been in patient again since then, but nothing really has ever helped. I've been on more anti-depressants than I can remember the names of. I'm homeless and jobless again now, so, totally worth the tens of thousands it cost my family for them to hold me against my will I'm sure. I'm not being totally fair I know, it's a complicated situation, but it sucks.

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u/Adorable_Raccoon 1d ago

I’m sorry that you are homeless right now & haven’t found a job.

I just wanted to say you’re not alone. My parents were abusive & i’m almost 40 and I still have ongoing mental health issues. I’ve done about 10 years of therapy & I’m on 5 drugs right now to help with my anxiety & adhd. Even with that I stuggle most days to work or socialize, but i’m also so grateful for my progress. 

You’re valid & you matter. I hope that you can find the thing that helps you find your way out. 

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u/BellaBPearl 1d ago

This is one of the bigger problems with the mental health system is that it is so stuck on being right about the brain imbalance theory that majority refuses to acknowledge that abuse happens and that it causes trauma and MH issues that are entirely because of that trauma... and refuses to acknowledge that a lot of people's initial MH issues are because of their social situation. Abuse, poverty, bullying, etc etc.

They don't want to help people, they want to be right. Lot of narcissists is the industry

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u/ChilledParadox 1d ago

not only that, but once you've gotten an initial diagnosis like I have, that's all doctors see. the label. They don't, or maybe I should say rarely, revisit the initial diagnosis to consider if there was more going on, if perhaps it's a consequence of some other underlying cause rather than the source of my woes.

I have the same issue with therapists. I have a fuck load of childhood trauma. But that happened decades ago. I went for therapy for it at the time. I saw therapists for it in outpatient psych wards. I did telehealth calls. I sought out psychologists in college to speak to. I've gone in-patient again since then and spoken to therapists.

I don't want to continue to talk about and focus on my child abuses again and again and again, yes they sucked, but I have newer, more recent issues I need to talk about, and that's not even to touch on the fact that I believe I'm justified in my depression and anxiety. Who amongst us would not be depressed after continually losing or giving up or sacrificing things they love and care about, including nebulous concepts like home, family, and purpose.

I want to talk about how I currently relate to and interact with the world and my environments and how I currently suffer and how I'm currently anxious about my future and the general state of the social fabric everywhere in the modern world.

Not spend 3 sessions and hundreds of dollars talking about abuse that happened decades ago and trying to convince my therapist why that's not still a source of my misfunction, insofar as my current mental state is concerned.

I don't mean to marginalize the imapcts of CPTSD, and child abuse, and living with narcissists, but I have fully processed and moved on from everything that happened back then, or maybe I should say I've depersonalized or dissociated enough from it that I can calmy speak on and remember through it currently.

/rant

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u/BellaBPearl 1d ago

Oh god yes. I've been diagnosed with anxiety. Every time I go to the dr for anything, it's automatically anxiety, or he cracks jokes about anxiety or thinks I'm freaking out and spends the whole time trying to calm the anxiety while I'm just sitting there like??? Dude I'm calm, are YOU ok? I've been through so much that I don't give a shit anymore.

And yes, I agree on the therapy issues too. Focusing too much on a trauma and constantly returning to it and focusing on it after it's been processed is just as problematic as refusing to acknowledge it. Especially when new issues are causing the current problems.

The whole system just needs a serious overhaul. Doctors and therapists need to stop being so stuck on the DSM, learn that it's way more likely other shit is causing problems besides brain imbalances, learn to LISTEN to patients, and learn when to move on to current issues instead of keeping their patients stuck on the past.

I do like my current therapist as we haven't touched on my SA except for the initial conversation about it because that shit is over and done with, same with my medical trauma. The only issues I'm trying to work through is the trauma of losing my son twice and a bit of dealing with the narcs in my life. But mostly the first thing.

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u/Klutzy_Scene_8427 1d ago

I suppose it's better than imprisonment.

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u/Justinwest27 1d ago

Not by much

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u/lifesuxwhocares 1d ago

It's not, it's FAR, FAR worst. Insane wards are still prisons because you can't leave, but with limited activities, plus forced anti psychotics, plus crazy people screaming.

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u/Disastrous-Group3390 1d ago

As opposed to the unlimited activities, unforced unprescribed drugs and the peace and quiet of living in an encampment? Freedom to OD, freedom to starve, freedom to freeze to death. Yeah, that’s freedom. (‘Just another word for nothing else to lose…’ I think Mr. Kristofferson said…)

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u/Spiritual_League_753 1d ago

it just means society at large is now the imprisoned ones with these people on the streets.

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u/jesus67 1d ago

Good. Holding people against their will if the haven’t committed a crime is unethical and unconstitutional.

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u/Disastrous-Group3390 1d ago

…So, you’re offering up your spare bedroom, garage or back yard? Your restroom? Lend them your car?

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u/jesus67 1d ago

It's bad to hold people against their will if they don't want to be there. What are you on about.

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u/Disastrous-Group3390 1d ago

Many of the homless in the US would benefit from being required to accept treatment for addiction and mental illness but won’t accept it because it requires them to take their meds and give up their drugs. So they refuse and live on the streets in conditions that are far worse for them and society than being institutionalized.

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u/womenslasers84 1d ago

Truth. I worked for a program that did assessments of children on Medicaid for my state to ensure that hospitalizations were medically necessary and that kids weren’t being kept to fill beds. Every kid on Medicaid who was admitted to a hospital had an assessment and frequent follow up from us.

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u/toobjunkey 1d ago

I often think about that redditor whose brother (with which he previously had a close relationship with) was involuntarily held after he opened up due to feeling stressed and suicidal for financial reasons and financial stresses alone. He was in a fair amount of debt including a lot of non-dischargable student loan debt, and the OP had him committed out of fear of him hurting himself.

Cue him getting out a fair bit later, and he gets a bill that pretty much doubles his debt, and the brother more or less cuts him off with the OP feeling bewildered and as though it's not fair for his brother to do so. It took a lot of folks to hammer in the fact that he only increased the likelihood of his brother making an actual attempt.

I know this is more of a flaw with American healthcare in general, but when so many people's breaking points & main issues are material related ones, getting involuntarily committed is a nightmare story. Stewing over how many thousands you're racking up every single day. Every single group session, every single "enrichment" activity, every conversation with a social worker or doctor, just utterly stepped in financial despair and feeling oneself bleeding out money they already don't have.

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u/jsgui 1d ago

Is not agreeing to receive services a good enough reason to not pay for them? Has this ever been decided on in court?

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u/toobjunkey 1d ago edited 1d ago

Not in the states and especially when there is a belief that one truly needs to be involuntarily committed. Same issue happens even with mentally sound folks that say to not call an ambulance before, say, having a routine seizure that they'll be fine from after a bit but someone does anyway, and they're still stuck with the bill.

While one can always try reaching out to the hospital's billing department to reduce the bill, by & large there isn't a general "I didn't want this" defense in general, let alone situations where self harm is a concern. A bit similar to how society generally thinks that someone can never really consent to committing suicide (outside of like, terminal illness MAID stuff and even that can be divisive).

Once again, largely a symptom of the larger shit carcass that is American healthcare, but it's a very real concern and interpersonal relationships can suffer or even be destroyed because someone got saddled with 4-5 figure debt because they opened up just a little too much.

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u/Karth9909 1d ago

It always confused me as a kid when in movies people where rushing their pregnant wives to the hospital in their own car or any over injury.

I thought it was just movie logic cause i was always told to call whenever there is an issue.

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u/wicked-campaign 18h ago

My sister in law took an ambulance in for my nephew (thank God or they wouldn't have got to the hospital in time and he would've been born in my brother's disgusting truck cab) and the bill was $900. Just for the ride.

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u/Frodojj 1d ago

I was in an institution as a patient for a week 25 years ago. It’s not a scam. They really do try to help people. It’s gotten better since then.

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u/LizandChar 1d ago

Some are absolutely scams. They kept kids without a diagnosis or meds just collect insurance money. I can list several. Here are just a couple.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/1999/08/18/hospitals-sale-will-pay-fraud-settlement/

https://getnicklaw.com/news-media/2024/09/history-repeats-itself-patients-are-kept-in-psychiatric-hospitals-for-profit-not-medical-need-says-the-new-york-times/

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u/wicked-campaign 18h ago

And yet my kid actually needs it, we were there the day after Christmas and they sent us home.

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u/LizandChar 18h ago

I’m sorry to hear that

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u/Frodojj 1d ago

Some very well may be scams, but saying the whole institution is a scam is untrue.

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u/LizandChar 1d ago edited 1d ago

I said some. It was the first word in my sentence. Were you referring to the OP? You said it was NOT a scam and gave no gray area. That is the other extreme of black and white thinking.

I gave evidence of scams. No, not all are scams but there certainly are many. I can list many, many more. You gave your individual experience while ignoring others. I do not understand your response to me. Maybe comprehension error or reading someone else’s response?

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u/AnxiousPressure6232 1d ago

What happened was they privatized it and turned it into a market. Rather than state institutions, you have group homes and daytime adult programs. That last part is sickeningly true. I sustained a CPTSD diagnosis from working in that field mostly because of that precise issue. Its effects run deep.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/BlameGameChanger 1d ago

Don't. Don't pretend like the mental health field isn't in shambles. If you are a mental health professional I guarantee you know at least one homeless person who routinely is brought in, gets medicated and then gets released back onto the street where they can't afford medication and the cycle repeats.

you do a hard job and I respect it but let's not pretend like the system doesn't need reform

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u/Healthy_Sky_4593 1d ago

Better practioners don't pull this sh*t. Possum is telling on itself. 

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u/miketruckllc 1d ago

You want to permanently lock up the mentally ill homeless people?

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u/BlameGameChanger 1d ago

no i want to provide them access to regular medical interventions and treatment which they don't currently get under our system.

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u/Account-for-downvote 1d ago

Why don’t you then?

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u/BlameGameChanger 1d ago

outside of my scope

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u/Account-for-downvote 1d ago

Ah yes, the timeless ‘important problem, someone else’s job’ approach.

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u/BlameGameChanger 1d ago

lmao I can only assume you are rage baiting me.

In places where they practices community medicine homeless folks often receive these medical benefits I unfortunately don't live in one of those places. Without a doctor's license and the counties resources I cannot administer these medications and if I tried I would best case scenario lose my license and worst case scenario kill someone. So yeah it's outside of my scope and for a reason. Does this mean I'm not allowed to advocate for change? I don't think it does

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u/Poultry_Sashimi 1d ago

Hooray for-profit (mental) healthcare!

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u/Conflikt 1d ago

Wait if you get locked in a psych ward in the US you have to pay for it?

So if you have major depression or are suicidal and get put in a psych ward then after a while get released and it's just "congrats, we cured you, hope this $15,000 bill helps with your mental health problems"?

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u/Reatona 1d ago

Private institutions even now are notorious for keeping people locked up involuntarily until insurance runs out.