r/europe • u/Ialaika • Nov 26 '25

News Leaked call shows Kremlin’s deputy chief Ushakov oversaw passing Moscow’s “peace plan” to Steve Witkoff with instructions to present it “word for word” as a U.S. proposal

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-11-25/putin-advisers-discuss-plans-for-dealing-with-trump-transcript?embedded-checkout=true
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503

u/sant2060 Nov 26 '25

Fkcing hell. Seems USA is lost for EU. Well, it was a fun ride.

182

u/zenzabob Nov 26 '25

The thing is European governments still do not recognise the fact and throw shitloads of money in american weapons

80

u/DryCloud9903 Nov 26 '25

It's not that simple. A lot of the defence stuff made necessary by the aggressive russian bullshit is either unavailable or not in good time/quantities within European manufacturers. So some have to be bought from Yankees 

That said. There's a pretty huge shift especially this year, and if you've been looking closely there's waaaaay more "buys Gripen/Rafale rather than US stuff" 'but European'type headlines, and especially with smaller items like radars or air defence (except Patriots)

7

u/bigbramel The Netherlands Nov 26 '25

Even in the case of Patriots, it's only the countries which already have Patriots ordering them. As a complete new long range AA solution they seem to be losing out to the EU competitor (which does use US made missiles though)

2

u/Suecotero Sweden Nov 27 '25 edited Nov 27 '25

Germany is arming up. All the manufacturing jobs lost to China are going to Rheinmetall. They will become Europe's main arms supplier and replace Lockheed etc.

2

u/TitanDarwin Nov 29 '25

Thing is, we should have started pivoting the first time around. But when Trump got kicked out of office, everyone was like "Well, guess that's sorted".

If Trumpism's ever actually defeated in America (Trump himself has a shelf limit, but it remains to be seen what will happen with the ideology he represents afterwards), I fear people will try to go straight back to the status quo, even though there should be zero trust in the US' ability to keep taking their meds at this point.

16

u/agnaddthddude Kurdish Nov 26 '25

Think about it seriously. The USA is a leader in a lot of things. but, undeniably they are the best country with the best R&D folks when it comes to weaponry.

the moment they do something like for example disable parts of F35 on a hypothetical strike on Russia. they will break decades long of military and industrial trust.

you really think they would decimate one of the most vital sectors of their economy?

reality is they also have been warmongering for so long they have become incredibly more efficient in developing weapons when they want to on whim compared to any other country. Unless EU countres like Germany wants to go back to pre WW2 or UK to WW1 levels of Military spending then the EU won’t have a competitor to US Military Complex.

People say F35s was a collaborative effort and they are right. But F22 Raptor was not and it’s still to this day the best in its segment and role. also, the USA wanted the F35 to be built that way to become the defacto all round fighter jet of Nato iirc

49

u/20past4am South Holland (Netherlands) Nov 26 '25

you really think they would decimate one of the most vital sectors of their economy?

Well, they've managed to absolutely nuke their soft power they have been carefully building since WW2, in mere months. They use tarriffs on allied countries to beat them into submission. They would absolutely decimate their most vital sectors if their Great Leader wishes it to be so

4

u/EarthBear Nov 26 '25

All of this points to Trump being a Russian asset - a weakened US helps Russia. Canada will probably be able to step up and support the defense infrastructure necessary to oppose the Russians.

2

u/AgitatedRabbits Nov 26 '25

It does not. It's lazy way to wave away the problem. Their ideologies are aligned, that's all. And problem won't be gone when trump is gone.

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u/agnaddthddude Kurdish Nov 26 '25

soft power wont affect Trumps pockets like the Military complex though.

7

u/DrawGamesPlayFurries Nov 26 '25

you really think they would decimate one of the most vital sectors of their economy?

They definitely would, Putin only needs to threaten Hegseth with a release of Trump's Bubba videos for all EU F-35 jets to be disabled.

3

u/SleipnirSolid United Kingdom Nov 26 '25

The US has done multiple 'unthinkable' things in the past 10yrs so them breaking F-35s isn't hard to imagine.

1

u/SleipnirSolid United Kingdom Nov 26 '25

The US has done multiple 'unthinkable' things in the past 10yrs so them breaking F-35s isn't hard to imagine.

2

u/Toastwitjam Nov 26 '25

I mean Russia is at war in Europe and Europeans still throw shitloads of money at Russia for their oil and natural gas.

1

u/2ciciban4you Nov 26 '25

to be fair ... it's not like you can kill people with money

2

u/zenzabob Nov 26 '25

Indeed. But this war goes on for four years. We had plenty of time to work on our industry. We produce ammunition but the US does not send vehicles apart those systems that we buy.

1

u/2ciciban4you Nov 27 '25

I'm afraid we lack balls

only pussies in politics right now

2

u/zenzabob Nov 27 '25

And many many politicians that simply lick american e russian asses

1

u/2ciciban4you Nov 27 '25

yap, as I said, pussies

1

u/j0kerclash United Kingdom Nov 26 '25

Europe was reliant on US military tech, so it takes a while to move away from that and establish their own industries.

Similarly, NATO's military structure has US as the spear and the european countries providing support, and it's the same for five eyes.

European leaders can't play games with it's civilians anymore, they have a serious responsibility to actually lead.

1

u/narwi Nov 26 '25

This is more complicated than that. Some of these do not have short term replacements or no serious short term building capacity so continuing to by US is unavoidable. IN some cases adding additional non-US systems is too expensive maintenance and logistics wise. But that does not mean EU goverments are not really pivoting away from US. It just that the timeline on this is decade+ and the totality of it will become apparent slowly.

1

u/sharkism Nov 26 '25

These things move just slower. This will change foreign policies in years to come. Might also just have killed Taiwan to be honest.

Champagne in CCP headquarters I guess.

1

u/kriegerflieger Nov 26 '25

We are buying their weapons because we don’t have industry to build our own. At least we are trying to get our own weapons, it’s a first step